AHC: Make the Republic of Vietnam Military Forces (RVNMF) competent

[RyderWest]

As the title said, how can the Republic of Vietnam Military Forces, aka the national armed forces of South Vietnam, be made into a competent fighting force during the Vietnam War?

The POD can be debated where, but the main ending of this AHC is to make the RVNMF, alongside its branches the ARVN, RVNAF/VNAF and the RVN, competent enough to reasonably stand its ground against the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese Army with or without the support of the US Armed Forces.

 

[thezerech]

Not cutting U.S funding after Paris is a good start.

During the war I'm not knowledgeable enough to name anything more specific other than giving more advisors and equipment.

 

[DG Valdron]

Not cutting U.S funding after Paris is a good start.

During the war I'm not knowledgeable enough to name anything more specific other than giving more advisors and equipment.

Wasn't it too late? How long had the war been going on then?

 

[RyderWest]

Wasn't it too late? How long had the war been going on then?

Funding was officially cut to the RVNMF on August 15th, 1973, as part of the Case-Church Amendment, IIRC. The war had been going on for nearly 18 years.

 

[DG Valdron]

Well, if the RVNMF wasn't competent by then, they weren't ever going to be.

 

[RyderWest]

Well, if the RVNMF wasn't competent by then, they weren't ever going to be.

What were the main problems with the RVNMF then?

 

[jmc247]

Well, if the RVNMF wasn't competent by then, they weren't ever going to be.

They weren't economically self sufficient any more then the North was from their larger patrons in 1973. The oil crisis also had a large negative effect on South Vietnam, but not the North thanks to their allies. If the Chinese and Russians cut support to the North in at the same time the United States did the South no conventional invasion would have been possible thanks to the losses incurred by the attempt in '72.

Making the South Vietnamese military better isn't really the largest issue, it's making the South Vietnamese economy better to be able to survive and maintain its forces after getting cut off by America.

Obviously having a bigger South Vietnamese Air Force would have helped as the South didn't do nearly enough in that regard seeing America as their main air cover from conventional invasion and we didn't show up in the air when the tanks started rumbling South.

 

[RyderWest]

Making the South Vietnamese military better isn't really the largest issue, it's making the South Vietnamese economy better to be able to survive and maintain its forces after getting cut off by America.

Should I edit the post to include how it can be maintained as well both economically and politically then?

Obviously having a bigger South Vietnamese Air Force would have helped as the South didn't do nearly enough in that regard seeing America as their main air cover from conventional invasion and we didn't show up in the air when the tanks started rumbling South.

Good point. The VNAF almost relied entirely on the Americans to provide the air support and once that was gone, they had no idea how to stop the NVA marching down south towards Saigon.

Any ideas how the VNAF could be improved, in that regard?

 

[jmc247]

Good point. The VNAF almost relied entirely on the Americans to provide the air support and once that was gone, they had no idea how to stop the NVA marching down south towards Saigon.

Any ideas how the VNAF could be improved, in that regard?

The South would really have to know as well as the Americans that US air support will end once America leaves. Both assumed that American air support would continue so there was no incentive for a major push to really develop a fully independent and effective South Vietnamese Air Force.

 

[RyderWest]

The South would really have to know as well as the Americans that US air support will end once America leaves. Both assumed that American air support would continue so there was no incentive to push to really develop a fully independent and effective South Vietnamese Air Force.

Same situation in Iraq were both the Iraqi MoD and the Pentagon assumed last decade that America would stay at least two or three decades so the Iraqi Air Force was something they planned on working on back in 05 sometime mid to late this decade so Iraq's planes that could drop bombs consisted of two Cessna that could drop Hellfire missiles when ISIS conventionally invaded in 2014 and obviously the WH froze when the invasion happened and it took them many months to authorize even some very limited air strikes.

You need the Pentagon and South Vietnam to understand American air support will end full stop (and not believe America may leave but the American Air Force will stand ready) and really put together a full faith effort to build a South Vietnamese Air Force starting in the 60s that can stand on its own two legs without American help. Instead it was just assumed we would continue to help so they ended up with an Air Force that was barebones in 75.

So, barebones Air Force due to bad assumptions? Seems like the barebones military because America is a running theme in the entirety of the RVNMF, most notably the VNAF, as mentioned here and the ARVN.

 

[Archibald]

Should I edit the post to include how it can be maintained as well both economically and politically then?


Good point. The VNAF almost relied entirely on the Americans to provide the air support and once that was gone, they had no idea how to stop the NVA marching down south towards Saigon.

Any ideas how the VNAF could be improved, in that regard?

Are you kidding ? they were handled plenty of strike aircraft from the Air Force. A-37 Dragonflies; F-5A and F-5E Tigers; Skyraiders; AC-130s, AC-47s, AC-119s. UH-1 by the dozens. Seriously, they had plenty of air power by themselves. They were just a bunch of corrupt morons (somewhat like nowdays Saudi arabia) a money pit swallowing dollars, men, and combat aircrafts.

 

[ComradeH]

You need to increase the moral of the troops. Seriously, the average morale of the ARVN is shite compared to the NLF/VC and/or the PAVN. Make them know what'd they are fighting for (i.e. Not money) and make sure all over-hostile act against the population is severely punished (which can be death penalty if you are talking about the PAVN).

Then increase their independence, make them understand the value of each bullet. By that they will have a lower rely on overwhelming and indiscriminate firepower and air support, US leadership.

After that, ramp up the propaganda and punish any wrongdoing of their allies. Do it publicly and you may earn back some support from the population.

 

[173rd LRRP]

The individual South Vietnamese soldier was excellent. Have a good friend who did five tours in RVN: 1st BDE 101st, 1st BDE Lrrp, made the drop with 2/503 PIR (173 ABN), 173rd LRRP, 74th LRP, and N Rangers. He spent 18 months with RVN Airborne as advisor and found them superior to US elite troops. He has told me that their TAC Air and artillery support were far superior to US. The pilots and gunners had many years of experience. Their political system was corrupt and could not endure.

 

[Blue cat]

Are you kidding ? they were handled plenty of strike aircraft from the Air Force. A-37 Dragonflies; F-5A and F-5E Tigers; Skyraiders; AC-130s, AC-47s, AC-119s. UH-1 by the dozens. Seriously, they had plenty of air power by themselves. They were just a bunch of corrupt morons (somewhat like nowdays Saudi arabia) a money pit swallowing dollars, men, and combat aircrafts.

Except they didn't have aircraft that (in my view at least) could be realistically expected to take the war to North Vietnam once the U.S. involvement wound down.

 

[jmc247]

Except they didn't have aircraft that (in my view at least) could be realistically expected to take the war to North Vietnam once the U.S. involvement wound down.

Yes what they had was mainly to deal with the the Vietcong and NVA acting as insurgents not a North Vietnamese conventional invasion nor take the war to the North.

 

[marathag]

Well, if the RVNMF wasn't competent by then, they weren't ever going to be.

ROK troops were just as pathetic in 1954, yet by 1968 were some of the most feared troops in South Vietnam

 

[DG Valdron]

ROK troops were just as pathetic in 1954, yet by 1968 were some of the most feared troops in South Vietnam

Sooo...... in 18 years, the South Koreans massively stepped up their game. And in that same time span the South Vietnamese didn't bother?

 

[marathag]

Sooo...... in 18 years, the South Koreans massively stepped up their game. And in that same time span the South Vietnamese didn't bother?

The ROK went from a shooting war to am armistice. A decade of relative peace can do wonders for a countries Armed Forces.

And by 1972, the ARVN had improved. just in time to watch their air support and spares situation go terrible, plus the Oil Shock.

 

[galveston bay]

Are you kidding ? they were handled plenty of strike aircraft from the Air Force. A-37 Dragonflies; F-5A and F-5E Tigers; Skyraiders; AC-130s, AC-47s, AC-119s. UH-1 by the dozens. Seriously, they had plenty of air power by themselves. They were just a bunch of corrupt morons (somewhat like nowdays Saudi arabia) a money pit swallowing dollars, men, and combat aircrafts.

to be fair, the ARVN and its Air Force due to budget cuts were down to reusing first aid dressings while rationing jet fuel, spare parts and ammunition and yet still fought very hard in the final engagements in 1975 when they got invaded by essentially two Soviet style combined arms armies. They also lacked the means to deal with North Vietnamese SAMs and the very large numbers of AAA guns available to their enemy as well.

The implied promise from 1972 is that the USAF would handle that heavy lifting for them.

They were competent but they started with a field army designed in the 1950s to fight a Korean War style invasion, had to learn on the fly to wage counterinsurgency, then had to post 1971 learn how to fight a conventional war again with less support than they had in 1960.

I have always felt sorry for them

This is a really good look at the final North Vietnamese offensive and how hard the ARVN fought back

There are a number of good works on this, but I found this one to be particularly exhaustive in details of the battles that led to the end

https://www.amazon.com/Black-April-South-Vietnam-1973-75/dp/1594037043

 

[RyderWest]

The individual South Vietnamese soldier was excellent. Have a good friend who did five tours in RVN: 1st BDE 101st, 1st BDE Lrrp, made the drop with 2/503 PIR (173 ABN), 173rd LRRP, 74th LRP, and N Rangers. He spent 18 months with RVN Airborne as advisor and found them superior to US elite troops. He has told me that their TAC Air and artillery support were far superior to US. The pilots and gunners had many years of experience. Their political system was corrupt and could not endure.

Political system in South Vietnam being insanely corrupt as per usual for the Vietnam conflict? I heard of the corruption in South Vietnam, but how bad was it? I certainly didn't help the quality of the RVNMF that's for sure.

Sooo...... in 18 years, the South Koreans massively stepped up their game. And in that same time span the South Vietnamese didn't bother?

Or caught too much in political struggles.