AHC: Make Russian an accepted part of the west.

Ok, but then we have the definition problem, people using "West" meaning things like Christendom or details of the US current foreign policy.
To me the 'West' is a cultural term used to describe a civilisation resting on three main characteristics: Christianism, Ancient roman legal legacy and Ancient Greeks' philisophical views. That's only my opinion though and I don't know what OP mean when he talks about the West.
What I'm saying is by being part of European monarchies system since the early 18th century, they were seen as part of "Europe" (and by consequence of the "West"). Queen Victoria descendants wouldn't marry into Ottoman, Persian or Chinese imperial families.
TBH, Queen Victoria descendants married Russians because a) Russia was a Christian country b) Russia was geographically in Europe (at least its wealthiest part) and thus was relatively close to the UK and c) Russia and the UK had an History of communication and shared actions (since the 18th century), like during the Coalitions against Napoleon.
 
I would say it was only half-considered Western during certain Times. E.g: during the Crimean War, the 1878 crisis with the Ottomans, but for the vast majority of the time Russia was just the Easternest part of the West. TBH, for the 'Western' countries, the 'West' was/is used as a way to describe the 'civilized world'. So yes, when the UK, France, Germany, Austria... Didn't consider useful for them to portray Russia as an enemy, they considered it as a 'Western' nation (frankly, it seems normal, Russia is Christian, even if not Catholic or Protestant, has Big greek/Byzantine influence, just like the 'West' who adopted Ancient Greek philosophy, and Byzance itself could be considered 'roman', the Roman Empire had also left very Big parts of its legal system to the 'West', so yes, Russia is very close to being 'Western' IMO).
I strongly suspect that the Byzantine anything or the Greek philosophy were as prominent in the international image of the Russian Empire of the XVIII - early XIX centuries (after this too much of a PR kicked in) as its ability to kick the s—t out of any opponent using quite up to date weaponry and fighting methods.

OTOH, you can find reference to its not quite civilized status in report of the British ambassador to the King in the early 1770s. Rather unsurprisingly, this was done within a context of the Russian refusal to agree to a trade treaty, which would forever give the British merchants regime of the most favorable nation without allowance for the Russian government to make adjustments, thus keeping the granted privileges in synch with those of the Russian own merchants. The ambassador, after eloquently explaining that the semi-barbaric nation simply can’t understand that England needs the “forever” privileges because it is a trade nation, asked to sign the Russian version of the treaty because it is actually quite good for England. Even greater frustration caused refusal of Catherine II to send the Russian troops to deal with what she described as “domestic dispute between King George and his American subjects.” AFAIK, none of these cases involved religion, Greek philosophy or the legal system. 😂
 
I strongly suspect that the Byzantine anything or the Greek philosophy were as prominent in the international image of the Russian Empire of the XVIII - early XIX centuries (after this too much of a PR kicked in) as its ability to kick the s—t out of any opponent using quite up to date weaponry and fighting methods.

OTOH, you can find reference to its not quite civilized status in report of the British ambassador to the King in the early 1770s. Rather unsurprisingly, this was done within a context of the Russian refusal to agree to a trade treaty, which would forever give the British merchants regime of the most favorable nation without allowance for the Russian government to make adjustments, thus keeping the granted privileges in synch with those of the Russian own merchants. The ambassador, after eloquently explaining that the semi-barbaric nation simply can’t understand that England needs the “forever” privileges because it is a trade nation, asked to sign the Russian version of the treaty because it is actually quite good for England. Even greater frustration caused refusal of Catherine II to send the Russian troops to deal with what she described as “domestic dispute between King George and his American subjects.” AFAIK, none of these cases involved religion, Greek philosophy or the legal system. 😂
The 'religion, Greek philosophy, or the legal system' thing is MY (and those of some others) view of the definition of the West (a cultural term to me, not political). And for the anecdote with the British ambassador, thanks for giving an example to back up my point😉: The 'western' powers use the word 'West' when it fits their interest to easily portray an enemy as out of the 'civilized world'.
 
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"Russia needed

You're completely right to be honest; if CalBear is watching this thread he may want to add a new rule about the use of clarifying language, but on the other hand we wouldn't have this major discussion. As for what I honestly mean by west, Russia becoming Protestant (which raises the question of what a Protestant-style schism in Orthodoxy would look like) or Catholic would not help its reputation for long ecspecially after the rise of early modern European power politics

As for the other three:
-Russia joining the EU would require a completely different trajectory and set of leaders after the fall of the Soviet Union, requiring that the nation as a whole abandon the path of shock therapy and instead transform its economy by integrating into EU trade systems;
AFAIK, the shock therapy was applied upon the advice of our (the US) advisors so are you saying that the US is not a part of the “West”? 😂

-Russia could become "advanced capitalist" if the 18th and and 19th century Romanovs had invested time in consolidating their autocracy in a way that broke apart the remaining power of the feudal lords and gave favors to low ranking innovators such as Lomonosonov and and his colleagues.
Lomonosov received a lot of favors, got a high rank and even had its own manufacture. Even lower ranking blacksmith became a founder of the biggest mining and iron manufacturing enterprise in Russia and probably in Europe.

The talk about the non-existing “feudal lords” and their power is pretty much meaningless: serious attempts of building the private and state-owned manufacturing had been made even before Peter and by the late XVIII - early XIX Russia became the biggest producer and exporter of the cast iron in Europe.

By the later nineteenth century, decades of this pattern would leave the the aristocracy in a similar state to the British or French prior to 1789 (at the most) as well as pave the ground for Russian companies to compete alongside their continental counterparts.
By the later XIX the aristocracy as a class became almost completely irrelevant in the economic, administrative, political and military areas. OTOH, there were plenty of the functioning companies. Competition was a tricky point because the companies created starting from the 1860s had a hard time competing, within the open market system, with the foreign importers who had more experience and capital. Only protectionist policy of AIII gave them a boost and situation further improved later with Witte’s policy of inviting the foreign investments. Which, even prior to wwi proved to be a mixed blessing. In other words, there were no fast and easy solutions to the complicated problems.

 
Ok, but then we have the definition problem, people using "West" meaning things like Christendom or details of the US current foreign policy.

What I'm saying is by being part of European monarchies system since the early 18th century, they were seen as part of "Europe" (and by consequence of the "West"). Queen Victoria descendants wouldn't marry into Ottoman, Persian or Chinese imperial families.
So we could agree then that the Russian Empire, or at least its ruling class if it's possible to separate that from the culture of a nation (which could be, given how Napoleonic era nobles in Russia would rather speak French than their native tongue), was western in so much as it competed on the same political and culutral field as the rest of Europe, but the notion then Russia ceased to be a part of the west with the revolution simply leads us back to a question I posed earlier: Does a nation stop being "west" when it falls from its previous heights and starts being exploited by the great powers? If so, can a state regain description of "west" by reforming itself into a position that's pliant to the global community? Overall, it seems it seems as if "the west" (as per my conclusion from this whole discussion) is simply a matter of playing the game a certain way. Japan learned this the hard way after WWI where despite having turned itself into European-style imperial power in just a quarter century and with a royal line to put Britain and and Austria to envy, was rejected at Versailles because the predominantly white nations didn't want competitors for mastery over the world.
 
If Russia took on Polish institutions of state after taking parts of the Commonwealth over, it would have been a part of the West by now, whether as a republican democracy or monarchical democracy.
 
Novgorodian Republic (of course, nobody called it “republic”) was a dead end. [snip]
Be that it may, at least to me it certainly shows potential - at least for TTL purposes - to be far more than it became IOTL, hence not a dead end. Having at least one part of the Russia-as-cultural-region that is not autocratic by default, as Novgorod was, is a great start to having at least part of it considered part of Europe - at least according to generic Western European norms. (At least as European as, say, Iceland.)
 
At this point having Russia have a situation similar to the Death of Russia timeline where most of them die and having the rest effectively become European/US puppet states might actually do it if nothing else that Russia as an entity would have less power than some second and third world countries, making it easier to accept as "western".
 
I don't think Russia is a 'corrupt Democracy' as many seem to think. First of, in a classical oligarchy oligarchs are not killed (there were a lot) throughout all of Europe by your own agents, without any backlash in your own elites. I agree with you for the Russian Communists and Liberals, and Navalny was... special (I don't want to insult the recently dead though). And yeah modern meanings of what we know as 'liberalism' or 'democracy' are different (it's much like romantic, pre-1848 democracy and liberalism, merged into nationalism, collectivism and radicalism IMO).
And true for Putin and the West, I think he tried to mimic Chinese foreign politics during the 2000's but he soon realized that there were too many confliction points between him and the 'West', and the 2008's invasion of Georgia led to a new dynamic were their bilateral relationship got more tensed by each year until the true breaking point of 2022.
Liberalism in Russia just means hypercapitalism and opposition to the Soviet system. It ranges everywhere from "Russia must be destroyed" to anti white Eurasianism. The only other thing that unites them is their love of nukes.
 
Be that it may, at least to me it certainly shows potential - at least for TTL purposes - to be far more than it became IOTL, hence not a dead end.
Try to create a realistic (aka, based upon the real environment and not abstract schemas) scenario in which it may end up as a serious success after the centuries of not going anywhere. It will be interesting.

Having at least one part of the Russia-as-cultural-region that is not autocratic by default,
as Novgorod was,

Oligarchy was not a very progressive social system either. Did not result in anything good in Venice, Genoa or any of the Italian city republics.
is a great start to having at least part of it considered part of Europe - at least according to generic Western European norms. (At least as European as, say, Iceland.)
This is preposterous because you are confusing geography with the political labels. Novgorod, just as any part of the European Russia was/is/will be “European” by definition because it is located in Europe. “Western” is a matter of opinion but geography is not.
 
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If Russia took on Polish institutions of state after taking parts of the Commonwealth over, it would have been a part of the West by now, whether as a republican democracy or monarchical democracy.
Taking into an account that these institutions resulted in a complete collapse of the state which was for quite a while the regional superpower, using the Commonwealth as a model to copy is an interesting idea. But, speaking of the institutions, Peter I copied his institutions from Sweden, which was quite “western” and, unlike the PLC, not a complete disaster. So by the time you are referencing to, the Russian state institutions were quite Western. Much more so than Polish.
 
I understood that the point was to "fix" Russia, not Ukraine. And there is no reason why they would decide to put so much effort into deterrence anyway. This leaves out that "deterrence" only works as long as the other side doesn't decide that they are going to attack you anyway because they are not impressed by your "deterrence" or because they believe that the benefits of attacking you outweigh the benefits of not doing so.

I think that would be enough. If Russians looked at Ukraine and understood that country would resist any Russian imperial move, then that would discourage Russia's leaders from making great imperial gambles. This, in turn, would have the effect of keeping Russian revisionism from being likely to be realized; I am a bit skeptical that Putin would have invaded in 2022 if he knew what would happen, and am certain that he would not have invaded at all in 2014 if the Ukrainian military had been strong and under control.
 
Correction: The "connections with the Hanseatic League" were limited to Novgorod being used as a sort of Hanseatic coaling station. A port of call where only low-level material is obtained and that was never a priority compared to other centers.
Could Novgorod's prominence as a port grow after the Mongol conquests? Maybe it's remote and large enough for the Mongols to consider it attacking directly; instead, Novgorod becomes the preeminent Russian tributary state in the Pax Mongolica, and grows larger from the flight of talented and wealthy refugees from Kiev and elsewhere. As a tributary of the Golden Horde, Novgorod benefits from flow of Asian goods westwards, and becomes the Hanseatic League's main point of contact for the Silk Road. Feudalism as an institution is thoroughly weakened in Russian society, as the urban classes come to dominate Slavic Christian culture (and the primary aristocracy in the region remains the Tatar nomads-- whose itinerant lifestyle also means they depend on/participate directly in trade a lot more than feudal lords would). Maybe this is all pushed along by the spread of the Black Plague -- loss of population hastened urbanisation and mercantilisation, sort of like it did in OTL Italy.
 
AFAIK, the shock therapy was applied upon the advice of our (the US) advisors so are you saying that the US is not a part of the “West”? 😂


Lomonosov received a lot of favors, got a high rank and even had its own manufacture. Even lower ranking blacksmith became a founder of the biggest mining and iron manufacturing enterprise in Russia and probably in Europe.

The talk about the non-existing “feudal lords” and their power is pretty much meaningless: serious attempts of building the private and state-owned manufacturing had been made even before Peter and by the late XVIII - early XIX Russia became the biggest producer and exporter of the cast iron in Europe.


By the later XIX the aristocracy as a class became almost completely irrelevant in the economic, administrative, political and military areas. OTOH, there were plenty of the functioning companies. Competition was a tricky point because the companies created starting from the 1860s had a hard time competing, within the open market system, with the foreign importers who had more experience and capital. Only protectionist policy of AIII gave them a boost and situation further improved later with Witte’s policy of inviting the foreign investments. Which, even prior to wwi proved to be a mixed blessing. In other words, there were no fast and easy solutions to the complicated problems.
I'm saying that the shock therapy was a half assed way to transtion from a Soviet economy; come to think of it, Russia may have fared better had Gorbachev enacted his policies for just a few more years before the USSR began to break apart. This could have possibly eased the transition thoughout the 1990s and made Russia a moderately successful, if comparably uninfluential capitalist state by the mid to late 2000s.

As for Lomonosonov, Russia needed more of that with its scholars, having them go through the royal academies and come out chemists and metallurgists who could compete with the industrialization of Britain and Germany.

The Russian aristocracy of the 19th century was there only in the sense that they had manors, serfs and a presence at the imperial court, but by then all power and resource were fundamentally invested in the tsarist autocracym so you're completely right in that regard. What replaced them in status however wasn't a rising bourgeoisie but rather a new beauracracy of soldiers and officials meant to enforce the will of the crown.
 
I'm saying that the shock therapy was a half assed way to transtion from a Soviet economy; come to think of it, Russia may have fared better had Gorbachev enacted his policies for just a few more years before the USSR began to break apart. This could have possibly eased the transition thoughout the 1990s and made Russia a moderately successful, if comparably uninfluential capitalist state by the mid to late 2000s.
You claimed that it was not liked by the EU, which implies that it was not “western” but it was recommended from the US, which makes it “more western than the EU”. Which has nothing to do with its wisdom or stupidity, just with the identification of its “westerness”. 😂
As for Lomonosonov, Russia needed more of that with its scholars, having them go through the royal academies and come out chemists and metallurgists who could compete with the industrialization of Britain and Germany.
No offense intended but this does not make too much practical sense. As I already explained in one of the post, by the end of the XVIII RE was a major exporter of the cast iron to Britain and until 1850’s its biggest producer in Europe. And Germany of that period was not industrialized at all: you can easily find out when Krupp’s production started.

There were no “royal academies” in Russia (except for the Imperial Academy of the Fine Arts), the high learning institutions had been called differently, and there were plenty of the high class specialists in chemistry, metallurgy and other sciences. I assume that everybody heard about the Periodic Table.

The Russian aristocracy of the 19th century was there only in the sense that they had manors, serfs and a presence at the imperial court, but by then all power and resource were fundamentally invested in the tsarist autocracym so you're completely right in that regard.

No, what I was saying is that in economy the private capitalist was dominant, that after 1860s the serfs ceased to exist and that bureaucratic apparatus was a power of its own which quite often had and pursued interests of its own. As Nicholas I put it, “Russian Empire is ruled by the heads of the departments”.

AFAIK, bureaucracy exists in any functional state and it tends to serve the government. Or to its own interests.
What replaced them in status however wasn't a rising bourgeoisie but rather a new beauracracy of soldiers and officials meant to enforce the will of the crown.

Really? I’m not sure that a randomly selected capitalist would make a good army commander and, AFAIK, even the “liberal democracies” tended to have the professionals for this purpose and their official purpose is to obey the orders of commander-in-chief. Who could be a President or a King or an Emperor. So nothing original there.

But since the times of AII the finance ministers in Russia tended to be the people with a solid financial background. One of the few exceptions was Witte who got education in Physico-Mathematical Sciences and then worked as a railroad engineer and then manager. I’m not sure that too many functioning capitalists or the people with an active technical background ended up as the PM’s of the UK before wwi or that many members of the bourgeoisie had been frequent guests at the royal British court so what’s the point?

OTOH, I can assure you that the important bankers and industrialists had a very high status in pre-wwi RE.
 
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You claimed that it was not liked by the EU, which implies that it was not “western” but it was recommended from the US, which makes it “more western than the EU”. Which has nothing to do with its wisdom or stupidity, just with the identification of its “westerness”. 😂

No offense intended but this does not make too much practical sense. As I already explained in one of the post, by the end of the XVIII RE was a major exporter of the cast iron to Britain and until 1850’s its biggest producer in Europe. And Germany of that period was not industrialized at all: you can easily find out when Krupp’s production started.

There were no “royal academies” in Russia (except for the Imperial Academy of the Fine Arts), the high learning institutions had been called differently, and there were plenty of the high class specialists in chemistry, metallurgy and other sciences. I assume that everybody heard about the Periodic Table.



No, what I was saying is that in economy the private capitalist was dominant, that after 1860s the serfs ceased to exist and that bureaucratic apparatus was a power of its own which quite often had and pursued interests of its own. As Nicholas I put it, “Russian Empire is ruled by the heads of the departments”.

AFAIK, bureaucracy exists in any functional state and it tends to serve the government. Or to its own interests.


Really? I’m not sure that a randomly selected capitalist would make a good army commander and, AFAIK, even the “liberal democracies” tended to have the professionals for this purpose and their official purpose is to obey the orders of commander-in-chief. Who could be a President or a King or an Emperor. So nothing original there.

But since the times of AII the finance ministers in Russia tended to be the people with a solid financial background. One of the few exceptions was Witte who got education in Physico-Mathematical Sciences and then worked as a railroad engineer and then manager. I’m not sure that too many functioning capitalists or the people with an active technical background ended up as the PM’s of the UK before wwi or that many members of the bourgeoisie had been frequent guests at the royal British court so what’s the point?

OTOH, I can assure you that the important bankers and industrialists had a very high status in pre-wwi RE.
There's one thing that seems strange to me: if the Russian aristocracy was finally rather weaker and was on the decline in the 19th century, then why the Tsars often hesitate to go against their interests? It took Alexander II a lot of discussions, compromises and compensations to abolish serfdom, and even then many, if not the majority, peasants were de facto still under the control of the aristocracy for financial reasons, as they weren't given the opportunity to buy their own farmland. And more broadly, why did the Russian Revolution broke out if there were so many private 'bourgeois', similarily to Western Europe, while it is often stated that this is precisely this supposed lack of bourgeois which allowed the communists to take over Russia?
I don't think this is a completely off topic question to ask because it would show what impeded Russia, OTL, to 'westernize' (if you consider Communism not being 'Western', which I disagree, but anyway) and then what are the characteristics to erase to make it western.
 
Could Novgorod's prominence as a port grow after the Mongol conquests?

It could not because it was not a port. 😂
Maybe it's remote and large enough for the Mongols to consider it attacking directly;

Yes, it was.
instead, Novgorod becomes the preeminent Russian tributary state in the Pax Mongolica, and grows larger from the flight of talented and wealthy refugees from Kiev and elsewhere.
It was a tributary but not the “preeminent” one and the “flight” part did not happen. Why would the local elite welcome the competitors? Or the moneyless refugees? Typically, the merchant republics were quite restrictive in that area. And the talents of which type are you talking about?


As a tributary of the Golden Horde, Novgorod benefits from flow of Asian goods westwards, and becomes the Hanseatic League's main point of contact for the Silk Road.
Interesting idea but did not happen. Most probably because it was too far off the main trade routes, which were on the South. Trade via the Genovese colonies on the Black Sea was much more convenient and led to the rich Mediterranean markets.

Feudalism as an institution is thoroughly weakened in Russian society, as the urban classes come to dominate Slavic Christian culture (and the primary aristocracy in the region remains the Tatar nomads-- whose itinerant lifestyle also means they depend on/participate directly in trade a lot more than feudal lords would).
The culture of the Russian princedoms was predominantly urban and the western-style “classic” feudals living in their castles did not dominate it before or after the Mongolian conquest. But no miracles, in a form a developed transit trade with the western Europe, was not happening. Whatever trade was there, it was with the East. Should not be too surprising because between the sphere of influence of the GH and the “west” laid the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and, anyway, communications East-West by the land were quite difficult and the Mongolian trade routes were to the South from the Russian principalities.


 
There's one thing that seems strange to me: if the Russian aristocracy was finally rather weaker and was on the decline in the 19th century, then why the Tsars often hesitate to go against their interests?
It took Alexander II a lot of discussions, compromises and compensations to abolish serfdom, and even then many, if not the majority, peasants were de facto still under the control of the aristocracy for financial reasons, as they weren't given the opportunity to buy their own farmland.
You are making a typical mistake of confusing aristocracy with nobility. The first was a small part of the second and the second formed a bulk of the service class (actually, anyone who was reaching a certain, not too high, level in the civic or military service automatically became a noble). But your question is, indeed, a relevant one and much discussed. As a side note and don’t take it personally, the picture you painted is not fully connected to the reality but this is a common misconcept greatly based upon the liberal and then communist propaganda.


Actually, discussion of the emancipation process started much earlier: as a Grand Duke, Alexander was a chairman of the commission discussing this issue and during the reign of NI there was Kiselev reform dealing with the state peasants. The whole thing took so long because nobody could tell for sure how it should be done with a minimal harm. Should the serfs be released with or without a land? The first option would inevitably result in the massive revolts. The second involved numerous questions:
  • What land? Agricultural only? With the forests? With other types of not agricultural land (ponds, river banks, etc.)?
  • How much of each type of the land? All of it, an arbitrary chosen percentage?
  • Who is owning what right now? This was a long going pain in everybody’s butt and a cause of the countless litigations because in an absence of a comprehensive cadaster (an attempt to conduct it was not an overwhelming success, to put it mildly) the precise borders of a specific estate were quite often not known and, to make life more interesting, due to the Russian inheritance laws, the estates had been regularly split between all the heirs and then, by the marriages and purchases, the families were getting disjointed pieces here and there so the pieces a single village could belong to the different owners and an issue of ownership of the specific parcel of land was a subject of the litigation.
  • What compensation the owners are entitled to? After all, the land was their even if the peasants tended to think that the part which their were ploughing was their and so were the communal pastures. In a civilized state ruled by the written laws you can’t just take someone’s property away because you think that this is a good idea. Contrary to what more than one participant of this discussion seemingly thinks, the “authoritarian” monarch simply could not do that.
Now, the last item is quite relevant because “everybody knows” picture is rather detached from a reality. Contrary to the popular assumption, most of the noble class did not own any serfs even in the early XIX. And this was the most important, from the state’s perspective, part of the noble class, the service people or the state employees, military and civic. Now, what about those with the land? Here comes the funny part. Approximately 40% (don’t remember precise percentage and not going to look right now) did not own their land. Who did? Alexander II. How comes? Elementary, Watson: a big part of the estates had been used as collateral for the money loans in the state bank, which belonged to the government personified by an Emperor. Even worse, most of these estates had been used as a collateral on a collateral to get the new loans (the government did not care as long as the percentages had been paid and when they weren’t the estate was auctioned). So, and there was such proposal, the government could claim these lands and just pay the owners a balance between the assessed cost and remained loan. Quite easy? Yeah, sure. The only problem was that the state did not have needed amount of money and printing a worthless paper was not a solution because financial situation was already lousy.

So the process had to be conducted in a way, which would not screw the government. Which was the OTL way. What about a presumably protected noble (lets use the right terminology) landowners? Contrary to the “everybody knows” perception, they were the first to be screwed. They had to give their ownership rights to the government which was to compensate them and pass these rights (freedom and land) to the peasants who will have to compensate the government. Seems fair but the estate owners did not get the money. They got certificates by which they could get money over time. But most of them wanted money now, either to waste them or to set up thing in the new framework, so they were selling them to the speculators at the discount prices. And what happens when a market is overflown with some commodity? Its cost goes down. So the noble landowners had been getting only a part of what they were expected to get and most of them kept selling the rest of their lands. Enough to say that by 1913 more than 80% of the agricultural lands were in the hands of the relatively small owners and this included the lands of the imperial family contributed to the distribution pool because population growth caused serious land crisis, which is a separate story. Class of the noble landowners shrunk and a big part of the major landowners were not nobles but the rural capitalists (especially in the sugar beets industry).

Now, what about the peasants? They were also screwed on two accounts:
  • They had to pay their debt to the state and if the cute schema introduced by AII and his liberal advisors worked out at its full extent, in the 40 (?) years of a planned payoff period the government would get 200% profit.
  • By the “mutual agreement”, all the way till Stolypin reforms the government was protecting the communal land ownership model. The peasants liked it because it was providing certain social protection and the government liked it because it was much more convenient for the tax collection and administrative purposes.
But there was a catch 22: within that model the technological progress of the agriculture was pretty much impossible because, with the annual redistribution of the individual parcels, nobody was interested in improving quality of the land and because the narrow strips of the land would not allow application of the advanced agricultural equipment. As a result, the productivity was low, the peasant were getting too few money and could not pay taxes and the ‘debt’ thus forcing the government to lower demands and eventually drop the remaining balance. So the government ended up being screwed in its plans as well.





And more broadly, why did the Russian Revolution broke out if there were so many private 'bourgeois', similarily to Western Europe, while it is often stated that this is precisely this supposed lack of bourgeois which allowed the communists to take over Russia?
Because there was a little thingy called “wwi” to which the Russian Empire was completely unprepared and which caused huge problems. RE was in a process of growing pretty much everything and needed years or even decades of peace to get on the same level as the most advanced European states. BTW, which “Russian Revolution” are you talking about? One of the February 1917 brought to power the liberal ‘bourgeoise’ but it stuck to the military course and was overthrown by the political demagogues promising peace (for quite a few years after the event the term accepted in the official communist documents was “October Coup”). ‘Bourgeoise’ can do little against millions soldiers who don’t want to fight a war and the rest was a byproduct of a brilliant demagoguery and organizational skills on one side and ineptitude in both on the other. Actually ‘others’ because opponents of the Bolsheviks were numerous and fighting with each other.

BTW, as a result of WWI all four empires, Russian, German, AH and Ottoman, ceased to exist and at least the German Empire was quite developed one. And, while the communist revolutions failed in Germany in Hungary, in a reasonably short time Germany ended up with a regime that was not “liberal” at all and most of the continental Europe west of the SU got various versions of the authoritarian regimes.

I don't think this is a completely off topic question to ask because it would show what impeded Russia, OTL, to 'westernize' (if you consider Communism not being 'Western', which I disagree, but anyway) and then what are the characteristics to erase to make it western.
I’m sick and tired of this “western” stuff, which in my opinion is meaningless. If you want to discuss the Russian history, it is fine by me. If you want to discuss who is or is not “western”, please find somebody else.
 
I’m sick and tired of this “western” stuff, which in my opinion is meaningless. If you want to discuss the Russian history, it is fine by me. If you want to discuss who is or is not “western”, please find somebody else.
I agree with you (even if you seem to think that the 'West' doesn't exist culturally, which is not my case but anyway) but 'unfortunately' it is the OP's original question, so it seems Logic to see the 'West' everywhere on this thread. And I would be thrilled to talk of Russian History with you (without mentionning the West, I promise😉) because it had Always amazed me how many contradictory statements there are existing about it!
 
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I agree with you (even if you seem to think that the 'West' doesn't exist culturally,
I did not say anything of the kind.
which is not my case but anyway) but 'unfortunately' it is the OP's original question, so it seems Logic to see the 'West' everywhere on this thread. And I would be thrilled to talk of Russian History with you (without mentionning the West, I promise😉) because it had Always amazed me how many contradictory statements existing about it!
Then you are welcomed. 😉
 
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