AHC: Create the Largest Naval Battle you can sometime after the start of WW1

Brak

Brak

Your challenge is to create an alternate timeline which puts the largest navies you can realistically think of up against each other. Some amount of increased naval production is acceptable. I will allow a navy of a country to be only 150% of what it was OTL. No "everyone joins the navy".
Try to focus more on what geopolitical alignments would focus large navies against each other.
Try to list the numbers of ships, if you can. Submarines count, if they are surfaced.
Also try to list the amount of sailors involved.
The battle should not be a campaign, but a specific engagement that can last for 5 days tops.
I'll try to start: the Naval theory of the "Climactic Battle" that was prevalent in Battleship based navies is never phased out due to aircraft carriers, so that Pearl Harbor is not an aerial attack. But the United States found out and prepared their fleet...
(No numbers listed 'cuase i'm terrible at naval history)
Edit: Anything post 1900 is also acceptable, if you want to change alliances ect.
 
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CV(N)-6

CV(N)-6

IJN plays more conservatively, keeping more of its fleet intact until 1944, meanwhile the Allies take out Tirpitz earlier (maybe late 1943). Result is Leyte Gulf consists of a slightly larger USN force, as well as the British Pacific Fleet, against a larger Japanese force. Leyte Gulf is already arguably the largest naval battle in history, this increases its total hull count and displacement massively.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Benny the Moose gets overcome with a desire to play a bigger role in the Fall of France and orders the Italian battleline to sortie against the French? Without any research, I don't know where the bulk of the French battlefleet were in June 1940
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
CV(N)-6 said:
IJN plays more conservatively, keeping more of its fleet intact until 1944, meanwhile the Allies take out Tirpitz earlier (maybe late 1943). Result is Leyte Gulf consists of a slightly larger USN force, as well as the British Pacific Fleet, against a larger Japanese force. Leyte Gulf is already arguably the largest naval battle in history, this increases its total hull count and displacement massively.
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A tangent to your thought: have the Prince of Wales and Repulse avoid being sunk in 1941. Have them be damaged enough where they're forced to withdraw for extensive repairs. Where might they be put back to work in late '42 or '43? Keep them somewhere East, to force the Japanese to dilute their forces to account for their presence, or join up with the post Pearl Harbor devastated USN Pacific Fleet battleline?
 

nbcman

Donor
Driftless said:
Benny the Moose gets overcome with a desire to play a bigger role in the Fall of France and orders the Italian battleline to sortie against the French? Without any research, I don't know where the bulk of the French battlefleet were in June 1940
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The most of French battleships in the Med were based in Oran with assorted cruisers and destroyers based in Oran, Toulon, Algiers, Bizerte, and Beirut. Lorraine was in Alexandria with the RN Med Fleet. There's a handy site (Naval-History.net) that lists ship locations at select times in WW2 as well as day-by-day movements of many Royal Navy Ships. See the below link for the listing of the locations of French ships for June 1940.
 
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I lurk therefore I am

The High Seas fleet do not mutiny when ordered to sea in 1918, and sortie instead. Signals Intelligence in the UK picks this up with enough warning for the US Navy to cross the Atlantic and join up with the Grand Fleet for Jutland 2.

That would be most of the world's Dreadnoughts getting at it, plus supporting fleets. Bonus points for Sopwith Cuckoos entering service early enough to operate from Vindictive, Argus and Furious finishing off stragglers
 
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YYJ

I lurk therefore I am said:
The High Seas fleet do not mutiny when ordered to sea in 1918, and sortie instead. Signals Intelligence in the UK picks this up with enough warning for the US Navy to cross the Atlantic and join up with the Grand Fleet for Jutland 2.

That would be most of the world's Dreadnoughts getting at it, plus supporting fleets. Bonus points for Sopwith Cuckoos flying from Vindictive and Furious finishing off stragglers
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Captain Seafort

I lurk therefore I am said:
The High Seas fleet do not mutiny when ordered to sea in 1918, and sortie instead. Signals Intelligence in the UK picks this up with enough warning for the US Navy to cross the Atlantic and join up with the Grand Fleet for Jutland 2.
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The RN wouldn't want any extra US ships - without the remedial training 6BS had recieved they'd be more of a hindrance than a help. A Battle of the Texal would still handily outdo Jutland.
 

YYJ

I think something could happen in South America, perhaps a war between Chile and Argentina, with other neighbours like Brazil and Peru piling on. The ABC countries all had dreadnoughts. Peru had a couple of modern light cruisers. I can't give fleet strengths right now, but there was a glut of 12" British and American dreadnoughts in the immediate post war. Chile was offered a couple of Invincibles at one point. If the escalation to war happened slowly enough, all sides could be snapping up surplus warships to augment their fleets, which also creates a strategic situation where one navy is encouraged to launch a pre-emptive strike before the other receives delivery of warships that would tip the balance. A differently minded Chilean admiralty might have accepted HMS Eagle as converted to an aircraft carrier, which would give an interesting first use of a carrier in the mid-late '20s while the world watched.
en.wikipedia.org

List of decommissioned ships of the Chilean Navy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

List of ships of the Argentine Navy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Brazilian Navy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org

List of Peruvian Navy ships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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YYJ

A thread earlier this year talked about a victorious and revanchist Germany trying to retake some of its Pacific colonies back from Japan, provoking a major fleet action in the Pacific. Tosa vs. Bayern. Akagi vs. Mackensen. Kii vs. Ersatz Yorke. This is on my list of possible timelines to write.
 
Hydra1234

Hydra1234

Keeping within the OTL wars, augmenting Leyte Gulf with the BPF or other USN/IJN forces is probably the best way to go, although whether or not Leyte Gulf is a single battle can be debated.

For a less plausible scenario, maybe even verging on ASB, scenario, here's what I got, setting up a massive engagement in the North Atlantic:
  • WWI ends with a status quo ante bellum in early 1916 (at least on the west), minimizing the economic damage of the war and also preventing the fleet losses at Jutland and the scrapping of the German battlefleet.
  • Less financial impact of WWI means naval buildup continues, especially when Wilson's plan for a "second-to-none" navy reignites a naval arms race
  • The WNT either never happens or has much laxer restrictions.
  • The UK decides to maintain the Anglo-Japanese alliance, souring the Anglo-American relationship. Other interwar diplomacy and politics (perhaps infringements on the Monroe doctrine and the aforementioned arms race) result in the US becoming friendly to Germany and somewhat hostile to the UK.
  • A lesser or no Great Depression also means less cuts to the naval budgets.
  • WWII breaks out with France, UK, and Japan on one side, and the US and Germany on the other side. Italy is either Entente-aligned or neutral. Not a comprehensive list by any means, only a list of naval powers.
  • The US, probably after securing Canada early on in the war, decides to try and link up the Atlantic Fleet with the High Seas Fleet. The High Seas Fleet is moved to Bergen (likely occupied) to cover the USN on the last leg.
  • An Anglo-French fleet moves to intercept, prompting the High Seas Fleet to also sortie to reinforce the USN. Depending on how fast the Germans reach the USN or vice versa, this could be either 1 or 2 engagements in 5 days.
The drastic PODs mean shipbuilding is vastly different, but I would spitball the USN has 17-23 battleships and 2-4 carriers, the RN has 20-26 battleships and 4-6 carriers, the HSF has 13-17 battleships and 1-2 carriers, and the MN has 8-12 battleships and 2-4 carriers present in the North Atlantic for this battle. That's only slightly more than WW1 numbers, but individual ships are much larger, and the oldest vessels are all super-dreadnoughts or the first iterations of fast battleships.

Admittedly, sending the entire Atlantic Fleet on a dangerous journey where they could be intercepted with 2:1 odds probably isn't a smart idea, so this engagement may not happen, but there are plenty of opportunities in the Pacific or Atlantic for a massive fleet battle to happen with a US + Germany vs Entente world war.

Edit: Somewhere in the ballpark of 250k-400k sailors are involved.
 
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Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
YYJ said:
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Yup - that's exactly what I was thinking.

Perhaps pimp the ride - no Jutland (RN 3BC+; HSF 1BC +) - have a larger US presence and throw in all the pre-deadnoughts?

Mind you, that could lead to an USM where the Heer leap from ship to ship across the North Sea!
 

jlckansas

I lurk therefore I am said:
The High Seas fleet do not mutiny when ordered to sea in 1918, and sortie instead. Signals Intelligence in the UK picks this up with enough warning for the US Navy to cross the Atlantic and join up with the Grand Fleet for Jutland 2.

That would be most of the world's Dreadnoughts getting at it, plus supporting fleets. Bonus points for Sopwith Cuckoos entering service early enough to operate from Vindictive, Argus and Furious finishing off stragglers
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The USN already had some BB's attached to the Grand Fleet in Scapa. The bad part would be getting them to work together with the US having gunnery problems.
 

RamscoopRaider

Donor
Coulsdon Eagle said:
Yup - that's exactly what I was thinking.

Perhaps pimp the ride - no Jutland (RN 3BC+; HSF 1BC +) - have a larger US presence and throw in all the pre-deadnoughts?

Mind you, that could lead to an USM where the Heer leap from ship to ship across the North Sea!
Click to expand...
Might also want to have Germany/Austria do better on land so they can put off the Death Ride into early/mid 1919 and the HSF finishes the last two Bayerns and first two Mackensens. Also gives time for the USN to recover from getting all its gunners poached to crew ASW escorts so the USN presence can be bigger
 
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