AHC : Anglo-Afro-Indian 'Mega Culture'

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Right, one of the biggest issues that has been put forth for the sustainability of the British Empire is that you can only have so many white settlers. The British could simply not pump out people fast enough from Anglo-Saxon, or at least White, demographics.

So challenge is to make a unified 'British' Culture, or at least a 'British Mega-Culture' (The difference being that the former, everyone sees themselves as one culture, the latter being a strong family of cultures that benefit from unity).

Bonus points for preserving as many cultures/cultural features as you can. :)
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Okay, let's see...


Tea drinking, Cricket, Anglicanism (can you get more of a syncretist version of Anglicanism where it basically designates every local "god" in sight as a saint?) would be a good start. Along with a tendency to sigh about the weather. :D
Another good one might be to have the Royal Navy building ships with homeports all around the Empire.

Adoption of Indian and African culture in fashion, cuisine and stories might be an important step. Perhaps a series of plays based on things like the Mahabharata?
 
Right, one of the biggest issues that has been put forth for the sustainability of the British Empire is that you can only have so many white settlers. The British could simply not pump out people fast enough from Anglo-Saxon, or at least White, demographics.

So challenge is to make a unified 'British' Culture, or at least a 'British Mega-Culture' (The difference being that the former, everyone sees themselves as one culture, the latter being a strong family of cultures that benefit from unity).

Bonus points for preserving as many cultures/cultural features as you can. :)

If the British started respecting their colonial subjects, this could take place, but it would require some ASBs.
Great idea. A fusion of Indian and British cultures would be awesome. And what if the British allied with the Zulus in the mid-1800s, carving out a joint empire in Southern Africa. Perhaps an Anglo-Zulu dynastic union?
Having Zulu troops on the imperial side would be a great advantage, considering how tough and disciplined they were. Maybe they could convince the British Army to give their men uniforms that wouldn't make 'em die of heatstroke.

I've had this idea in my head of a steampunk Zulu Empire that imported engineers and teachers from Germany to build infrastructure. Imagine if the Zulus had gotten access to full European-style ordnance, Gattling guns, mortars, and everything.
 
Okay, let's see...


Tea drinking, Cricket, Anglicanism (can you get more of a syncretist version of Anglicanism where it basically designates every local "god" in sight as a saint?) would be a good start. Along with a tendency to sigh about the weather. :D
Another good one might be to have the Royal Navy building ships with homeports all around the Empire.

Adoption of Indian and African culture in fashion, cuisine and stories might be an important step. Perhaps a series of plays based on things like the Mahabharata?

A form of syncretized Protestantism develops in India, in which a Brahma-tinged version of the Christian God is worshipped, but it is believed that God appears in various incarnations, similar to Vishnu in Hinduism. Also, the Hindu and Christian demons could be pretty easily syncretized.

In Africa, the locals become Christian, but keep their original holidays, festivals, and customs.
 
Have the British have the same attitudes towards interracial unions as the Spanish and Portuguese in their colonies? I understand that in India, a similar policy was seemed to have been pursued with liaisons between EIC officials and soldiers and the nobility of the Indian states they dominated over.
 
The British monarchy marrying African tribal Kings, or Anglicanism merging with paganism centuries after its theology having been settled are alien space bats. I don't think people realise how entrenched the concepts of racism and British superiority. They were what justified empire in the first place and you'd have to go back to before the empire ever existed to butterfly them.
 
The British monarchy marrying African tribal Kings, or Anglicanism merging with paganism centuries after its theology having been settled are alien space bats. I don't think people realise how entrenched the concepts of racism and British superiority. They were what justified empire in the first place and you'd have to go back to before the empire ever existed to butterfly them.

All it takes is one influential person to have a change of heart, but in saying that I suspect any ideology or philosophy regarding racial equality would go hand-in-hand with decolonisation, rather than imperial unity.
 

Sebbywafers

Banned
Isn't Afro-Caribbean culture in a lot of the West Indies similar to what your end result would be? You could easily use that as an analog, seeing as I would expect some kind of creole language and mixed culture just like what developed otl in the Carribean.
 

Sebbywafers

Banned
All it takes is one influential person to have a change of heart, but in saying that I suspect any ideology or philosophy regarding racial equality would go hand-in-hand with decolonisation, rather than imperial unity.

idk, some racial equality supporters have been pretty happy with maintaining an empire. Take the Bolsheviks in Russia for example. I'd say a spirit of internationalism and melting-pot-ness would have decentralised the empire, but maybe held a lot of it together. Maybe with this scenario you get independent Tanzania and such, but more a loyal India, Australia and South Africa.
 

Sebbywafers

Banned
The British monarchy marrying African tribal Kings, or Anglicanism merging with paganism centuries after its theology having been settled are alien space bats. I don't think people realise how entrenched the concepts of racism and British superiority. They were what justified empire in the first place and you'd have to go back to before the empire ever existed to butterfly them.

I don't see why the British monarchy has to change at all, just the culture of the local people and the local governments. Anglicanism shouldn't even have to change, tbh, seeing as religion is a unifying factor in a population and getting rid of the syncretic bits would make big parts of the empire closer to eachother religiously and maybe well culturally.
 
I've always thought India was a lost cause in the end. Independence could have been prevented for longer, but eventually it's inevitable, whether the nation remains united or splits into multiple states. I think Africa is where the empire can hang on, especially in the smaller, less economically viable regions such as The Gambia, or Sierra Leone. The trouble with prolonged colonial empires is, of course, the treatment of the natives. You need to remedy this in order to make independence for its own sake look less attractive.

Think of it this way. If you're an African living in Sierra Leone, poor, ignored by those in charge, and just next door in Cote D'Ivoire the nation is being run by Africans for Africans, that's going to look pretty good.

If you can somehow make it so the British incorporate more of their subjects into the local power-structure, and actually share the imperial wealth rather than just exploiting the colonial resources for themselves, then the empire can stay together at least in places.
 
Quite hard, considering how IOTL the Japanese tried so hard at the Koreans and the British tried so hard at the Irish. A primary necessity is the fact that these "new" cultures can be introduced as equals into British society/culture.
 
Quite hard, considering how IOTL the Japanese tried so hard at the Koreans and the British tried so hard at the Irish. A primary necessity is the fact that these "new" cultures can be introduced as equals into British society/culture.

Seems to me that this example of Ireland is very apt. Why would English culture blend with Indian and/or African cultures before Irish, who were much closer linguistically, culturally, ethnicly, religously, and poliically?
 
In modern times middle class Indians have some really rather British habits. Its not too ASB for this to become stronger and for the Indian influence on the UK to similarly be stronger.

Quite hard, considering how IOTL the Japanese tried so hard at the Koreans and the British tried so hard at the Irish. A primary necessity is the fact that these "new" cultures can be introduced as equals into British society/culture.
Britain didn't really try with Ireland actually, it was the Irish themselves who saw more opportunity in adopting English who did their own integration.
In modern times a northern English/Scottish person has more in common culturally with an Irishman than they do with a southerner.
Politics and culture rarely follow the same borders.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Quite hard, considering how IOTL the Japanese tried so hard at the Koreans and the British tried so hard at the Irish. A primary necessity is the fact that these "new" cultures can be introduced as equals into British society/culture.

Seems to me that this example of Ireland is very apt. Why would English culture blend with Indian and/or African cultures before Irish, who were much closer linguistically, culturally, ethnicly, religously, and poliically?

In modern times middle class Indians have some really rather British habits. Its not too ASB for this to become stronger and for the Indian influence on the UK to similarly be stronger.

Britain didn't really try with Ireland actually, it was the Irish themselves who saw more opportunity in adopting English who did their own integration.
In modern times a northern English/Scottish person has more in common culturally with an Irishman than they do with a southerner.
Politics and culture rarely follow the same borders.

Tyr has it to be honest - though it was worsened by a genuine English disgust/distaste for the Irish. If the English had been pro-Irish rather than just wanting to displace them, then I imagine that assimilation would have been quite comfortable.

If the British started respecting their colonial subjects, this could take place, but it would require some ASBs.
Great idea. A fusion of Indian and British cultures would be awesome. And what if the British allied with the Zulus in the mid-1800s, carving out a joint empire in Southern Africa. Perhaps an Anglo-Zulu dynastic union?
Having Zulu troops on the imperial side would be a great advantage, considering how tough and disciplined they were. Maybe they could convince the British Army to give their men uniforms that wouldn't make 'em die of heatstroke.

I've had this idea in my head of a steampunk Zulu Empire that imported engineers and teachers from Germany to build infrastructure. Imagine if the Zulus had gotten access to full European-style ordnance, Gattling guns, mortars, and everything.

Steampunk Zulus sound awesome, but I can't see it working - Shaka Zulu changed how Zulu warfare worked to be conquest, but utterly changing their style of war could be somewhat uneventful, as they don't have the infrastructure to support that style of warfare.

Though regarding respect, I think this is going to be the overriding issue. As much as this could butterfly the remaining Empire - if for some reason or another the larger Irish communities in America could be staunch loyalists that counter the revolutionaries? This would certainly endear them to the British proper, perhaps changing the Irish from "Damn Paddies" to "Good Irish Patriots" in the popular zeitgeist. If Irish is seen as similar but not the same, but capable of loyalty, then it could certainly encourage that attitude once the British go east.

Though an East India company that instead of getting repeatedly bailed out, is instead replaced with British vassals? If they intermarry (which isn't a bad idea) then in India an Anglo-Indian cultural fusion could begin in the upper class, influencing back home.

Put off trade companies holding territory and armies vs vassals, the British could then in Africa institute a similar policy, creating Anglo-African nobility. With the Anglo-African, Anglo-Indian, and Anglo-Saxon cultures all having to deal with each other in formal and functional situations - a sense of tolerance would emerge, and likely be fostered by the crown to keep them stable.

Admittedly, as Socrates points out below, marrying African tribal Kings is going to be very unlikely, but if they set up an African, educated and loyal, and Anglo-African, then they would be marriagable, but probably not by the monarchy, not for a long time.

The British monarchy marrying African tribal Kings, or Anglicanism merging with paganism centuries after its theology having been settled are alien space bats. I don't think people realise how entrenched the concepts of racism and British superiority. They were what justified empire in the first place and you'd have to go back to before the empire ever existed to butterfly them.

Hence -

4925377+_0f4fa6a5589958a2c16ce7467a8f0889.jpg


Isn't Afro-Caribbean culture in a lot of the West Indies similar to what your end result would be? You could easily use that as an analog, seeing as I would expect some kind of creole language and mixed culture just like what developed otl in the Carribean.

Not in the least familiar with Afro-Caribbean cultures to be honest. Though I think your points on creole language and mixing would be true. Just take a look at Singlish in Singapore, they always form.
 
All it takes is one influential person to have a change of heart, but in saying that I suspect any ideology or philosophy regarding racial equality would go hand-in-hand with decolonisation, rather than imperial unity.

This isn't true at all. Even if Queen Victoria decided she wanted to merge the Church of England with Zulu traditions and marry an Indian prince, there would be dozens of people in her government that would stop it happening.

I don't see why the British monarchy has to change at all, just the culture of the local people and the local governments. Anglicanism shouldn't even have to change, tbh, seeing as religion is a unifying factor in a population and getting rid of the syncretic bits would make big parts of the empire closer to eachother religiously and maybe well culturally.

"Just" the culture of hundreds of millions of Africans and Indians.

idk, some racial equality supporters have been pretty happy with maintaining an empire. Take the Bolsheviks in Russia for example. I'd say a spirit of internationalism and melting-pot-ness would have decentralised the empire, but maybe held a lot of it together. Maybe with this scenario you get independent Tanzania and such, but more a loyal India, Australia and South Africa.

Because the oppressed nations of the Soviet Empire, from Chechnya to Lithuania, were converted to the cause from the internationalist mindset of the Bolsheviks? No, the reality is that with all the positive will in the world to put nationality to one side, the reality is that it is a defining component of human identity and is near impossible to eradicate, short of ethnic cleansing. That's something that people who like painting maps red, blue or some other colour don't like to face up to.

In modern times middle class Indians have some really rather British habits. Its not too ASB for this to become stronger and for the Indian influence on the UK to similarly be stronger.

Middle class Indians are maybe 5% of the Indian population. As soon as political consciousness went beyond the British trained elite and went to the hundreds of millions of peasants, the Raj was doomed.

Britain didn't really try with Ireland actually, it was the Irish themselves who saw more opportunity in adopting English who did their own integration.

They certainly tried damn hard to convert them to Protestantism. But let's look at some examples of nations that did try hard to convert people to a foreign culture: the French in Senegal, the Japanese in Korea, the Portuguese in Angola. How did they end?
 

Delvestius

Banned
At one point the British considered federalizing their colonies, rather than keeping them imperial dominions.

This would mean that all nations convene in a common parliament, so there's certainly a start. I can't imagine the levels of representation would be the same across the board however, and probably not exactly equal. For example, New Zealand would probably have as many or more reps then larger non-white colonies.

EDIT: I just learned this would be called a "federacy", not a "federation" in which all sub-national states are equal.
 
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The British monarchy marrying African tribal Kings...are alien space bats.

Aye, can you imagine the political controversy (not to imagine the personal shock and disdain of their peers) if a part of the British royal family, symbols of a world empire, married some monarch no one's ever heard of ruling over a tiny nation full of what they considered "savages" on the other end of the world?
 
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