AHC: A definition of American Midwest to include Pittsburgh and Buffalo

[althisfan]

What the tin says a standard definition of the Midwest region of the US that includes Pittsburgh PA and Buffalo NY and their surrounding areas. As a bonus- I'd like to see it to include definitively West Virginia (which is kind of left to float among different regions, kind of as an add on because it doesn't fit Mid-Atlantic, South, Midwest); extra credit bonus points to include Kentucky.

 

[varyar]

Hm. I think the easiest way to do this would be to make western New York (everything beyond the Hudson Valley, let's say, or at least out to Syracuse) and western Pennsylvania their own states somehow. Otherwise they'll get lumped in with the eastern, Atlantic-centered parts of their states, no matter how culturally distinct they are.

As far as West Virginia and Kentucky, this probably needs a very early POD and different settlement patterns, not sure how plausible that might be.

 

[Arkenfolm]

West Virginia and Kentucky have parts which are pretty Southern, and then parts which are unmistakenably Midwestern. Especially historically, where I don't see how you couldn't call a place like Wheeling, WV "Midwestern". Kentucky is a bit harder, but you could make an argument for the parts along the Ohio to be called "Midwestern".

Buffalo and Pittsburgh and the surrounding area (including Erie, Pennsylvania) are more Midwestern than WV and KY, without a doubt. The only reason that area isn't in the standard definition is because they share their states with New York City and Philadelphia.

 

[Philip]

How much of the idea/identity of the Midwest is tied to the history of the Northwest Territory? Pittsburgh and Buffalo being in the original 13 might be an obstacle.

 

[Escape Zeppelin]

The US never expands westward past the Rocky Mountains. As a result the "mid-west" is considered anything between the Eastern Continental Divide and the Mississippi River.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The US never expands westward past the Rocky Mountains. As a result the "mid-west" is considered anything between the Eastern Continental Divide and the Mississippi River.

Not likely, when the old name for Tennessee, Alabama, and Mississippi was the (Old) Southwest, and the Old Southwest will inevitably diverge from the Old Northwest culturally and economically.

 

[Alexander Hamilton]

Just a personal note. I spent a summer in Cleveland working as a summer associate at a big law firm. My wife, a New York City girl by birth, upbringing and choice, always referred to Cleveland as "the West". So Buffalo and Pittsburgh would probably be considered the "Middle West" by her type of New Yorker!

 

[althisfan]

Not likely, when the old name for Tennessee, Alabama, and Mississippi was the (Old) Southwest, and the Old Southwest will inevitably diverge from the Old Northwest culturally and economically.

As strange as it sounds the (Old) Southwest was applied only to future Tennessee and not to Alabama and Mississippi. Starting during the Articles of Confederation the states gave up their claims to the lands north of the Ohio. Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia had the right (and the will) to keep their western trans-Appalachian areas as integral parts of their states. Starting with Kentucky and "Franklin" the areas of Virginia and North Carolina started demanding statehood; under the Articles, Kentucky voted to become a state, and Virginia voted to approve, the Confederation Congress however tabled the application because the Constitutional Convention was already underway by that time and they didn't want to cause a constitutional crisis regarding it's ability to ok a new state should the new Constitution be ratified. Under the new Constitution, Congress accepted Kentucky as a slave state balance to Vermont's inclusion. Kentucky is one of a handful of states to never have been an federal territory first, it was an integral part of Virginia, divided into counties and congressional districts and everything. When North Carolina couldn't (well, wouldn't) take the effort of administering and defending from Native Americans the state gave future Tennessee to the Federal government which organized it as the Southwest Territory (a play off the Northwest Territory) but it included only modern-day Tennessee. For Georgia it was the Yazoo land scandal that led to Georgia's govt giving their western lands to the US govt in return for cash to pay off their debt and the US govt took responsibility for land claim disputes and other legal responsibilities (Compact of 1802). The territory was organized as the Mississippi Territory, by the time of that cession from Georgia the state of Tennessee had already joined as the 16th state as a slave pair to Ohio.

 

[Arkenfolm]

As strange as it sounds the (Old) Southwest was applied only to future Tennessee and not to Alabama and Mississippi. Starting during the Articles of Confederation the states gave up their claims to the lands north of the Ohio. Virginia, North Carolina, and Georgia had the right (and the will) to keep their western trans-Appalachian areas as integral parts of their states. Starting with Kentucky and "Franklin" the areas of Virginia and North Carolina started demanding statehood; under the Articles, Kentucky voted to become a state, and Virginia voted to approve, the Confederation Congress however tabled the application because the Constitutional Convention was already underway by that time and they didn't want to cause a constitutional crisis regarding it's ability to ok a new state should the new Constitution be ratified. Under the new Constitution, Congress accepted Kentucky as a slave state balance to Vermont's inclusion. Kentucky is one of a handful of states to never have been an federal territory first, it was an integral part of Virginia, divided into counties and congressional districts and everything. When North Carolina couldn't (well, wouldn't) take the effort of administering and defending from Native Americans the state gave future Tennessee to the Federal government which organized it as the Southwest Territory (a play off the Northwest Territory) but it included only modern-day Tennessee. For Georgia it was the Yazoo land scandal that led to Georgia's govt giving their western lands to the US govt in return for cash to pay off their debt and the US govt took responsibility for land claim disputes and other legal responsibilities (Compact of 1802). The territory was organized as the Mississippi Territory, by the time of that cession from Georgia the state of Tennessee had already joined as the 16th state as a slave pair to Ohio.

No, that was just the Southwest Territory (which indeed was just Tennessee), the term "Old Southwest" is used to refer to entire early trans-Appalachian Southeast.

 

[althisfan]

No, that was just the Southwest Territory (which indeed was just Tennessee), the term "Old Southwest" is used to refer to entire early trans-Appalachian Southeast.

It also includes Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, and parts of Texas, and the Florida panhandle, along with western Georgia. It's an arcane and little used term, that sometimes is limited to south of the Tennessee River instead of south of the Ohio. Reference- Clark, Thomas Dionysius. The Old Southwest, 1795-1830: Frontiers in Conflict. (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1996)

In the field of literature it includes all the above plus Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina. Reference- Flora, Joseph, Lucinda Hardwick MacKethan, and Todd Taylor. "Old Southwest". The Companion to Southern Literature: Themes, Genres, Places, People, Movements, and Motifs. (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 2001)

So, again- your definition doesn't fall in line.

 

[Arkenfolm]

It also includes Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, and parts of Texas, and the Florida panhandle, along with western Georgia. It's an arcane and little used term, that sometimes is limited to south of the Tennessee River instead of south of the Ohio. Reference- Clark, Thomas Dionysius. The Old Southwest, 1795-1830: Frontiers in Conflict. (Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, 1996)

In the field of literature it includes all the above plus Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina. Reference- Flora, Joseph, Lucinda Hardwick MacKethan, and Todd Taylor. "Old Southwest". The Companion to Southern Literature: Themes, Genres, Places, People, Movements, and Motifs. (Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 2001)

So, again- your definition doesn't fall in line.

Yes, "trans-Appalachian Southeast", that's exactly what I said. And if the US never expands past the Rockies (the original post I was responding to), then that could logically mean Arkansas and Louisiana are excluded from the definition.