DMS said:some external economic assistance. Sterling from Britain or commodities from the US seem like the two most plausible candidates.
DMS said:if all they need is money, the British can extend the role they played in Europe for two centuries and pay the Japanese to fight for them. Or the US can anticipate its WWI lending.
True commercial creditworthiness is not as much of an issue if a government decides it is important for Japan to win or just sustain the conflict. Or at least it's not much of an issue for a while.
David S Poepoe said:The only way I can see it is if the war had blossomed into an Anglo-Russian War also. But politics in Europe, particularly the growing Anglo-French friendship, and particularly Paris, wasn't going to allow the conflict to widen. The British and French were working out an understanding that would allow them to face Germany.
bekosh said:So let's change that. Have Kaiser Frederick III, who was very popular in Britain, survive his cancer in 1888. Germany never starts the naval build-up that alienates Britain. Germany and Britain join in an alliance to offset the Franco-Russian alliance. So we have 2 competing alliances when the Russians attack the British fishing fleet in the North Sea. The British Home Fleet attacks the Russian Baltic Fleet, causing heavy casualties, sparking a general war in Europe. Germany and Britain both provide support to Japan to keep them in the war to occupy the Russian forces in the Far East.
I've never heard that Frederick and Wilhelm I were that important to the development of the Imperial Navy (not saying you're wrong). I always thought that the Imperial German Navy began it's growth at the direction of Tirpitz & Wilhem II in 1897 and the 1898 German Navy Laws.David S Poepoe said:Talk about historical cliches! Frederick III, like his father Wilhelm I, supported the development of the Imperial German Navy. If Frederick III was on the throne would he have permitted the German-Russian Agreement to lapse which lead directly to the establishment of the Franco-Russian Entente?
bekosh said:I've never heard that Frederick and Wilhelm I were that important to the development of the Imperial Navy (not saying you're wrong). I always thought that the Imperial German Navy began it's growth at the direction of Tirpitz & Wilhem II in 1897 and the 1898 German Navy Laws.
Most of what I know of this period is from "Dreadnought" by Robert Massie, it seemed to me that many of the problems between Britain and Germany were created by Wilhelm II and his obsession with the Royal Navy. IIRC, Britain was actively pursuing an agreement with Germany even as late as 1905/06, but it kept running up against Wilhelm II (my take on Massie's book).
Thanks, I'll add it to my ever growing list of books to get.David S Poepoe said:If you can take a look at Preparing for Weltpolitik: German Sea Power before the Tirpitz Era by Lawrence Sondhaus, its a really excellent book. .
It's "Castles of Steel". I've read it too. I rather enjoyed both books. Massie, to me at least, seems to have a writing style that is very readable and less dry than many history books (for example Campbell's "Jutland"). When you say "can see the holes" do you mean that there are factual errors in the history? Or is it just that it is less in depth than other books on the period?David S Poepoe said:I've read "Dreadnought" and think it pales in regard to recent research. Its alot of pages of fluff at times and I'm still planning to read the sequel "Steel Castles" (or whatever it is). Its good for beginners in introducing a fairly complicated subject, the Anglo-German Naval Rivalry, but well read historians can see the holes.
Richard1978 said:Did the Russians have a Northern fleet at this time? It would have been a bit easier for one based at Mermansk to get to the far East than the Baltic fleet.
David S Poepoe said:Tirpitz was a great PR man and he certainly exaggerated his influence on the growth of the German Navy. If you can take a look at Preparing for Weltpolitik: German Sea Power before the Tirpitz Era by Lawrence Sondhaus, its a really excellent book. Tirpitz was 'johnny come lately' to the big gun club, he made a name for himself trumpeting the torpedo boats for awhile. Massie did a fairly good job of just regurgitating alot of previously known stuff. I've read "Dreadnought" and think it pales in regard to recent research. Its alot of pages of fluff at times and I'm still planning to read the sequel "Steel Castles" (or whatever it is). Its good for beginners in introducing a fairly complicated subject, the Anglo-German Naval Rivalry, but well read historians can see the holes.