AH challenge:more liberal america

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Walter_Kaufmann said:
Thus, he is neither a scumbag, like the two Kennedy's, who you had the gall to say were more honorable than he, nor a hypocrite, like MLK, Jr., who ranted and raved about white being bad, and then went to his hotel room and slept with white prostitutes.

Are you confusing MLK with Malcolm X? MLK, to my knowledge, never once said Whites were bad, he wanted everyone to be equal and live together - that's why his movement had such enormous appeal to Whites.
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Are you confusing MLK with Malcolm X? MLK, to my knowledge, never once said Whites were bad, he wanted everyone to be equal and live together - that's why his movement had such enormous appeal to Whites.

You know what? I'm biting my own toungue a lot aren't I.
 
Michael E Johnson said:
--What Michael is trying to say is that although he acknowledges that Goldwater is not a racist, he believes Goldwater's strict interpretation of "states' rights" would impede progress for southern blacks.---


I dont need help with what I'm trying to say.It should be perfectly obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of American history, a command of English and no desire to sugar-coat and soft pedal racism.

If you believe that everyting every politician says or does ought to be aimed at improving the situation of blacks no matter what the cost to our political system, then I agree with you, there is racism going on, just not in the same places you find it.
 
--There is a difference between FACTS and OPINIONS. Calling Goldwater a race-baiter is only an OPINION unless you can provide FACTS that prove this was what he was doing.---

Sometimes I feel like Bill Clinton is channeling people here and getting them to argue what the defintion of is is. Barry Goldwater may not have been a racist or even a race baiter-but the facts,as listed in those articles, show that the strategy,policies and many of the people who have supported the GOP over the past 40 years are both. I think reasonable people can make conclusions as to what they feel that says about a person's "honor".
 
Michael E Johnson said:
--This oversimplifies. State's rights was about State's rights, not a "narrow" issue like race relations.---


except for the FACT that Southern racists who used the term "states rights" INVARIABLY when they were talking about maintaining Jim Crow as did the politicians who pandered to them on the issue. Just as it PRIMARILY meant maintaing and expanding slavery when it was used by Confederates in the 1860's.

Although I think INVARIABLY is too strong, I agree that this often was the case, however Goldwater was a national politician, not a representative of Southern racists. There were good people that supported Hitler, too - does that mean Hitler was a good man? Likewise just because there were racists that supported Goldwater does not mean that Goldwater was a racist.
 
As for the issue of why people voted for Goldwater, I'm sure that there were a variety of reasons. Some voted for him because they were genuinely concerned about the growth of the federal government's power, while others saw his states rights' position as a convenient way to oppose the Civil rights movement. Not everyone who supports the same candidate does so for the same reasons. Since the debate was about Goldwater's own character, I assumed that we were debating his own intentions. Based on what I now know, I don't believe that racism or opposition to civil rights per se were motivations for Goldwater's views. I don't believe that anyone can realistically hold a political candidate accountable for the motives and morals of every single person who votes for them.

As for states' rights vs. federal power, I can understand why Civil Rights leaders usually turned to the federal government to support their measures. Their opponents were deeply entrenched in local and state governments in at least some parts of the country, and trying to change things on a local or state level must have seemed like trying to smash through a concrete wall by beating your head against it. For people like Goldwater, Civil Rights was less important an issue than government power and restrictions on it. As I said before, one could make a good argument that Goldwater was somewhat naive about the likelihood of civil rights succeeding on a local and state level, or that he didn't give the issue nearly the attention that it deserved because he was distant from it. I don't think that this is equivalent to being racist, however.
 
My God, 3 more frikkin' pages since this morning... welcome to Rantfest '04.
Ian, please please please kill this page. Or at least rename it to "The Thread that Wouldn't Die...and Should"....
 
Michael E Johnson said:
--Because it means the dissolution of one's culture, the end of the world you grew up in, and the need to integrate into something entirely new. I didn't say this was bad, just that its disconcerting.---


Interesting. Is it safe to conclude that another one of the things thats disconcerting about this happening is losing the special power and advantage that being white in America has always bestowed?

Wow, you can take even the most neutral statement and make it into a race issue. I don't feel that I ever had any special powers. Eddie Murphy once did a great skit on SNL where he put on white-face and walked through the white world - walking into a bank, he asked for a loan, and started producing ID and credit history - the loan officer laughed, told him "don't worry, there aren't any blacks around" - and handed him a big bag of cash. On the bus, the last black person got off, then the music started, the food and champaign came out and a dance commenced.

This seems to me to be your view of white America. Since I have never had speical powers, I don't really fear losing them.
 
Goldwater repeatedly supported equal rights. He integrated his family business, the Arizona National Guard, JOINED THE NAACP, and wrote repeatedly that he viewed the races as equal. He opposed Federal efforts at integration, but he also repeatedly attacked the Justice Department for not prosecuting voting rights violation rights in the South, because these were Federal civil rights.

You are grouping him with people that came after him and twisted his philosophies to evil ends, and he does not deserve that.

Quotes:

"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?"

"Now those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth, and let me remind you they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyranny."

"I wouldn't trust Nixon from here to that phone."

"You don't have to be straight to be in the military; you just have to be able to shoot straight."

"Equality, rightly understood as our founding fathers understood it, leads to liberty and to the emancipation of creative differences; wrongly understood, as it has been so tragically in our time, it leads first to conformity and then to despotism."

"When you say 'radical right' today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye."

''I don't like being called the New Right; I'm an old, old son of a bitch. I'm a conservative.'' - expressing his contempt for Jesse Helms and his ilk, whom he also called "nuts."

And finally, just for Walter:

Regarding JFK: "If he had lived, he would have made a great president".

Heh, heh, heh... that's a real quote, too.
 
2 Points.

1) States Rights is not invariably linked to racism, segregation, and/or slavery (or however Mike wants to phrase it). FACT: Robert E Lee was against slavery. FACT: Robert E Lee was in favor of states rights enough to refuse the command of the Union Army and fight for the Confederacy.

2) Mike's obsession with race issues reminds me of Straha's obsession with legalizing drugs. Except Straha isn't so annoying about it. :D'
No offense is meant to Straha, btw.
 
---1) States Rights is not invariably linked to racism, segregation, and/or slavery (or however Mike wants to phrase it). FACT: Robert E Lee was against slavery. FACT: Robert E Lee was in favor of states rights enough to refuse the command of the Union Army and fight for the Confederacy.----

Rebuttal to point 1-by the way the author is white :eek:- Remember read the ENTIRE article .

The Ghost of Racism Past
by James Hall, Senior Associate Editor


December 20, 2002

"Leaning Left"

We're all familiar with Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol", in which the ghosts of the past and future labor to persuade a miserly Scrooge to change his ways. This month, future Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS) confronts the ghosts of his past. Will he learn, and like Scrooge become a better person for it? Or does he get buried, unloved and unlamented by those he could have helped? And what of his party?

I, for one, don't believe that most of today's conservatives are segregationist. Most conservatives aren't prejudiced against blacks; they're simply prejudiced against the poor.

That, of course, is a topic for another column. But since a large percentage of blacks just happen to be poor, they correctly perceive that a conservative agenda that includes removal of welfare benefits, the watering-down of public education with vouchers and poor funding, the removal or blocking of minimum wage and living wage laws, the attempted destruction of labor unions and collective bargaining, and the ideological support for sending jobs overseas, etc., is aimed at them. Throw in a few actual segregationists like Lott and their 'paranoia' becomes very real---if today's segregationists can no longer keep blacks separate, they can still keep them poor.

Yes, some conservatives remain segregationist, hiding behind conservative ideology. You can even read some of them here on The American Partisan's pages (see Dave Gibson's "So Utterly Predictable" or SARTRE's Strappado Wrack: "The Many Colors of Ignorance.") These segregationists call themselves conservatives and profess to believe in conservative values like "states' rights," "freedom of association," and "less government."

A whole generation of Southern segregationists used these concepts to fight against civil rights, integration, and the removal of laws discriminating against blacks in the 1960s. 1970s, and 1980s. For these segregationists "state's rights" meant the right of states to pass Jim Crow laws regulating the conduct of the races; "freedom of association" meant separating the races; and "less government" meant less federal interference in integration and court-ordered desegregation plans.

Today's conservatives, for the most part, repudiate these interpretations of conservative doctrine. But even conservatives without a bigoted bone in their body must recognize the Republican Party's recent debt to segregationism. After the Democratic Party's ideological commitment to civil rights in 1964, many Republicans closed their eyes to their ideological differences with segregationists and accepted them into the Republican Party. Ronald Reagan's famous visit to Philadelphia, Mississippi was emblematic of that moral ambiguity. And it paid off --- within a couple of decades Southern white voters, once predominantly conservative Democrats, became conservative Republicans instead.

Some conservatives are now patting themselves on the back for calling out Lott on his segregationist views. But will they also condemn his segregationist brothers when they hear them in private? Will they condemn attempts to use race to rally voters to their party? In Georgia this past election, Republican Sonny Perdue won an upset victory in part by appealing to turn back a change to the Georgia state flag that had removed the Confederate battle flag from a prominent place in the flag's field. That change had been supported in a bipartisan fashion both by the NAACP and by Georgia's business community.

The flag issue, some will argue, is about Southern tradition, not segregation. But that answer ignores the flag's origin in 1956, during the days when segregation was under federal attack, as well as its meaning for blacks and a rallying point for segregationists today. The Southern Poverty Law Center reports that the Confederate battle flag is flown by over 500 race hate groups today. If conservative Southern whites want their flag back, they must take it back from hate groups first.

Secretary of State Colin Powell put the issue straight to his Republican colleagues at the 2000 Republican National Convention when he asked why the party fights so hard to deny affirmative action for a few thousand poor black students, but advances affirmative action policies for the treatment of corporations and their CEOs. Why do Republican-controlled state legislatures continue to draw up gerrymandered districts that are completely black or lily white, creating segregated districts to guarantee their election rather than trying to run themselves in mixed --- integrated --- districts?

Conservatives should ask themselves why segregationists are attracted to the Right. They must be careful not to be used by the segregationists who still lurk within their ranks to promote policies that keep black Americans stuck in poverty, deny black Americans chances for a good education and equal protection under the law. They ought to be concerned about political gambits like Perdue's, that pit blacks against whites. The Ghost of Racism Past is in the room; meanwhile, a conservative Ebenezer Scrooge is still making excuses for staying in bed. ***


James Hall
Orlando, Florida, USA


---2 Mike's obsession with race issues reminds me of Straha's obsession with legalizing drugs. Except Straha isn't so annoying about it. '
No offense is meant to Straha, btw.----


Rebuttal of point 2 .I'll take this one. Obsession can be a good thing depending on what it is.Many people here seem to be obsessed with sugar coating,soft pedaling,ignoring and out and out lying about racism in American history. I'm obsessed with correcting that.I use my own words but also post others as above when they so adequately refute the same sugar-coating.



ps Found another one.He's white to :eek:




E.J. Dionne, Jr.
Washington Post Writers Group
12.20.02


States' wrongs
Can a post-Lott Senate GOP adopt a post-Goldwater ideology?


WASHINGTON -- In all the denunciations of Trent Lott's after-the-fact endorsement of Strom Thurmond's 1948 presidential campaign, almost no one is talking about the principle on which Thurmond based his defense of segregation. The principle was states' rights.
It's not surprising that Republicans shoved Lott out of his job before the debate went too deep. For all their attacks on Lott's excursion back to the 1940s -- they culminated in his resignation as leader on Friday -- most contemporary Republicans are as committed to states' rights doctrines as he is.

This creates a problem. Most Republicans, to their credit, now embrace the civil rights laws of the 1960s. These laws, after all, were passed with significant support from such important Republican figures as Senate leader Everett McKinley Dirksen and Rep. Bill McCulloch.

But Dirksen, McCulloch and their allies were standing up for the old Republican tradition that defended the power of national government to promote equal rights. That tradition came under attack in 1964 when Republican nominee Barry Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights Act in the name of states' rights, and also because he thought some of its anti-discrimination provisions violated property rights. As Republican Jack Kemp put it recently in a column: “'The GOP went wrong in 1964 when Barry Goldwater, no racist, tragically voted against the Civil Rights Act out of misguided ideological purity.” That phrase, “'ideological purity,” is both accurate and instructive.

It was Goldwater's campaign, of course, that began the Era of the Republican South. Post-Goldwater Republicanism swept in millions of States' Rights Democrats, as Thurmond's supporters called themselves, including an ambitious young Mississippian named Trent Lott. Goldwater carried only six states in 1964: South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia and Arizona. The first four of these had been the only states to vote for Thurmond in 1948. Apropos some of Lott's recent comments, the overlap did not occur because Goldwater and Thurmond shared some views on national defense. At issue were civil rights -- and states' rights.

One can now hear Republicans groaning: “But that's ancient history, and Lott was a problem because he's letting all our opponents dredge it up.”

That sentence is true except for the part about ancient history. While most Republicans now support the old civil rights measures, they continue to cast themselves as the party of states' rights, and proudly so. Republican court appointees, from the Supreme Court on down, are busily fashioning a new jurisprudence that uses states' rights as grounds for overturning progressive national legislation. Already, for example, the courts have used states' rights to limit the reach of federal laws on behalf of the disabled and the environment. Where states' rights don't work to eviscerate national legislation, property rights are called in. Sound familiar?

Until Lott reminded us, here's what we had forgotten: States' rights doctrines were invoked in our history for purposes other than preserving the sanctity of state laws. As Grant McConnell put it in his classic book, “Private Power and American Democracy,” states' rights provided “the classic defense of the privileges enjoyed by local and other elites.”

African-Americans in the South are among the best-known victims of states' rights claims, but they were not alone in having to turn to the federal government to seek vindication for their rights. It also took federal power to advance the rights of workers (through the Wagner Act and wages and hours laws), to protect consumers, and to guarantee the rights of small investors. Federal law protects the rights of women, the disabled and members of religious minorities.

Yes, it's good that many Republicans (some more quickly than others) came out against what Lott said. But it's significant that many of his earliest and most forceful critics were neo-conservative former Democrats -- Charles Krauthammer and William Kristol come to mind -- who never shared the old states' rights faith. The first Republican senator to issue an outright call on Lott to quit was Rhode Island's Lincoln Chafee who, as his first name suggests, speaks from his party's oldest tradition of support for federal power.

But Lott's Republican critics, who share his states' rights views on many contemporary matters, need to explain why states' rights doctrines that were so wrong as a general proposition in 1948 are right today. If the federal government was right to overturn states' rights in defense of African-Americans, why is it wrong now to view states' rights with a degree of suspicion and to continue to see the federal government as a bulwark for individual rights? Lott has now been hustled off center stage, but the question will still haunt his party.
 
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None of that really had much to do with my point about R.E. Lee. Its just more proof that segregationists used the ideal of states rights to defend segregation. Nobody here (to the best of my knowledge) is denying that.

I'm also sure that if, by some twists of fate, the federal government was in favor of segregation and the state governments were in favor of integreation (this is an AH board, after all), the segregationists would be decrying the evils of states rights and extolling the virtues of the federal government. Mike would then be condemning all federalists as segregationists in fact, if not in word.

As to an example of state's rights not having anything to do with segregation, I bring up the time that New England wanted to secede from the Union.

Quick question, Mike. You say the states rights means segregation, in effect, if not in name. Would you also say that communism means totalitarianism, in effect, if not in name?
 
"MacArthur was an incompetent egomaniac fool who should have been shot for treason for forcing an entirely superflous parallel Pacific Campaign to gratify is giant ego"

Huh? What was superflous about the Pacific Campaign? The Japanese were the ones who actually attacked the US and they needed to be dealt with. Or are you talking about one particular campaign (the Phillippines, probably) in the entire Pacific phase of World War II?
 
Matt Quinn said:
"MacArthur was an incompetent egomaniac fool who should have been shot for treason for forcing an entirely superflous parallel Pacific Campaign to gratify is giant ego"

Huh? What was superflous about the Pacific Campaign? The Japanese were the ones who actually attacked the US and they needed to be dealt with. Or are you talking about one particular campaign (the Phillippines, probably) in the entire Pacific phase of World War II?

There were two entire island-hopping campaigns, one to defeat Japan, and the other one to allow MacArthur to return to the Phillippines, the latter of which was totally unneccesary, consumed a colossal amount of resources, and resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans, not to mention the Japanese casualties, due to MacArthur's having spent all his time and effort on increasing his public influence and political power rather than defeating Japan, which in my mind, is evil.
 
DominusNovus said:
None of that really had much to do with my point about R.E. Lee. Its just more proof that segregationists used the ideal of states rights to defend segregation. Nobody here (to the best of my knowledge) is denying that.

I'm also sure that if, by some twists of fate, the federal government was in favor of segregation and the state governments were in favor of integreation (this is an AH board, after all), the segregationists would be decrying the evils of states rights and extolling the virtues of the federal government. Mike would then be condemning all federalists as segregationists in fact, if not in word.

As to an example of state's rights not having anything to do with segregation, I bring up the time that New England wanted to secede from the Union.

Quick question, Mike. You say the states rights means segregation, in effect, if not in name. Would you also say that communism means totalitarianism, in effect, if not in name?


I don't see how those essays do anything other than point out the obvious, that racists hid behind state's rights. So? That doesn't make Goldwater or all State's Rights advocates, past, present, and future racists and segregationists.

I find myself taking a more extreme point of view than I think I really believe because of Michael's belligerence, and I 'm beginning to reevalutate my posistion - after listening to this I wonder if blacks really are out for equality or just revenge. I haven't heard even the slightest whiff of a constructive attitude, just a desire to tear down all things white.
 
Smilies for all occasions

As I read the many many pages of ranting on this sight, I can't help but notice the many smilies sprinkled through MEJ's posts. This has given me the idea that we need a bigger variety of them, particularly for this thread. I propose:
an angry looking face with a wide open shouting mouth; this would be the 'I'm a ranting moron' smiley.
a face with eyes wide open and mouth hanging open in shock; the 'I can't believe that idiot really said that' smiley (or, it could double for the 'I can't believe this thread grew by 3 pages while I was gone to lunch' smiley).
a face with X's in place of the eyes and tongue hanging limply out of a slack mouth; the 'Oh hell, just kill me now' smiley.
a face with narrowed eyes and a disdainful sneer; the 'Damn, you're a f*****g moron' smiley (with this one, MEJ and WK could just trade this smiley back and forth, rather than bother with posting words).
If any of you have any more suggestions, please post them. True, this is nothing to do with the topic, but it's more interesting than most of what's been posted so far... ;) :( :D :confused: :eek: :) :mad: :p :rolleyes: :cool: :eek:
 
----I don't see how those essays do anything other than point out the obvious, that racists hid behind state's rights. So? ---

I understand that fact isnt very important to people with your views about the matter but just to clarify you are acknowledging that whats written in the essays are facts not lies,distortions or 'opinions' as was previously suggested here?


---I find myself taking a more extreme point of view than I think I really believe because of Michael's belligerence, and I 'm beginning to reevalutate my posistion - after listening to this I wonder if blacks really are out for equality or just revenge. I haven't heard even the slightest whiff of a constructive attitude, just a desire to tear down all things white.----

Please, if you want to have that attitude you dont have to distort or twist what I'm saying here or have said in other threads to have it. Anyone who can seriously question wether or not blacks want equality in America is already coming from a certain set of false assumptions namly that things really arent and havent been all that bad for African-Americans ( or easier for whites) and blacks who have the nerve to point out how wrong that is are being cry-babies, belligerant or seeking revenge.Of course the reality is that some of those attitudes are completely warranted considering the history behind the issue.


The reason I went on as long as I did about this is because it never ceases to amaze me how people can disregard historical facts when it comes to pointing out issues like racism that challenge peoples ideas about America. I challenge anyone here to list anything that isnt factual about what was posted in the articles. You dont have to think it matters or that it was wrong but just say so-but you cant deny it happened and still does.That said I'd also be happy to have Ian close it down or have other people redirect it towards what it would take for a more liberal America -obivously alot judging by some of the views expressed here. But before this topic is abandonded I'd really like to hear Ian weigh in on this issue. He obviously hasnt considered the discussion below board standards as he hasn't spoken. I know I held myself back from saying alot of what I was thinking in the interest of civility and not getting banned.Ian,what do you think about this issue ?
 
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Michael E Johnson said:
The reason I went on as long as I did about this is because it never ceases to amaze me how people can disregard historical facts when it comes to pointing out issues like racism that challenge peoples ideas about America. I challenge anyone here to list anything that isnt factual about what was posted in the articles. You dont have to think it matters or that it was wrong but just say so-but you cant deny it happened and still does.That said I'd also be happy to have Ian close it down or have other people redirect it towards what it would take for a more liberal America -obivously alot judging by some of the views expressed here. But before this topic is abandonded I'd really like to hear Ian weigh in on this issue. He obviously hasnt considered the discussion below board standards as he hasn't spoken. I know I held myself back from saying alot of what I was thinking in the interest of civility and not getting banned.Ian,what do you think about this issue ?

I don't have time to go through all the articles and point out in detail what I feel to be opinion vs fact or where I feel the articles are innacurate, but I will address key paragraphs:

"The devil’s bargain that GOP presidential contender Barry Goldwater struck with the South in 1964 assured the unshakeable loyalty of white Southerners. Goldwater blasted civil rights demonstrations, opposed the 1964 Civil Rights bill, and promised to slash big government. This open pandering to Southern fury over integration resulted in the wholesale stampede of Southern whites into the Republican Party. The Democratic Party became the hated symbol of integration, and civil rights.

Republican Presidents Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, and the elder Bush excised Goldwater’s naked race-baiting appeals, but railed against welfare, crime in the streets, permissiveness, and quotas. This was racial code speak and Southern whites got the point."

How is this fact? While Goldwater did hold SOME of the positions listed above, the analysis of his motives is pure opinion and flies in great opposition to everything Goldwater ever said or did regarding race issues.

This "Devil's Bargain" line only makes sense if Goldwater's only aim was to make racists vote for the GOP. His aim was to become President, which means he needed to win nationwide. His philosophy of government was very consistant and carefully spelled out, and he wrote several books to make himself clear, which I feel safe in assuming you haven't read. Goldwater believed:

1. In small government. "A government that is big enough to
give you all you want is big enough to take it all away."

2. Racial equality. He was a member of the NAACP, and railed against the Justice Department for not prosecuting voting rights violations against blacks.

3. State's Rights. This was not necessarily code for racism, although it is obvious that it is for some people. State's Rights is still an important philosophical point to most conservatives, who are concerned about the extra-constitutional assumption of powers by the Federal Government. Goldwater opposed this, and yes, this included opposing some of the Federal Government's efforts to combat Segregation, WHEN it was employing powers it did not have, but he also strongly SUPPORTED the Federal Governments efforts when it was acting within it's constitutional authority, as in the case of voting rights. The quote I pasted in Point #1 is pertinent, because it shows that he was incontrovertably right. The same powers usurped by a progressive government to do good (in its view, at least) are now being used by an evil one to strip away our rights, i.e. "Free Speech Zones". HOW things are accomplished matters. Stalin managed to make Russia far more equal than it was under the Tsars, but I doubt many people would applaud.

4. Racism is bad, and it is disgusting when people hide their evil agenda behind conservative values. Goldwater specifically, and by name, rejected and reviled men such as Jerry Fallwell, Jessie Helms, and other prominent racists and bigots. Goldwater had a very stong record as a desegregationist in Arizona, and in his personal life, having desegregated his department store chain, but did not feel that the Civil Rights Act was the way to go. “no law can make one person like another if he doesn’t want to.” and he also felt that the public accommodation clauses in the act would “destroy the rights of some under the false banner of promoting the civil rights of others.”

5. Welfare is bad and in the recipient results in “elimination of any feeling of responsibility for his own welfare and that of his family and neighbors.” He felt that Welfare would create a vast underclass in the inner cities, and it's hard to see how he was wrong. He also strongly opposed corporate welfare.

6. Supported gay rights and abortion rights.

Just as Walter confuses MLK with Malcolm X, you confuse Goldwater with the people that came after him and twisted his message.

The reason I use the word "revenge" is that you seem to be determined to tar and distort the memory of a great man for no other reason than that you disagree with his political philosophy.
 

Ian the Admin

Administrator
Donor
Okay, that's enough of all that.

Michael and Walter, both of you should know better than to start flinging flames and insults at each other, and to continue such a massive argument after it has gone off topic. You have been warned.
 
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