AH Challenge, Carthage

[Matthais Corvinus]

I like it. Except for selling the Council members into slavery. Once Hannibal has won he needs to consolidate power and allowing the "rebel" Council members to remain alive is probably a good way to win back lost favor. It shows him to be a merciful man.

How does Rome react to their defeat?

 

[burning down one side]

I like it. Except for selling the Council members into slavery. Once Hannibal has won he needs to consolidate power and allowing the "rebel" Council members to remain alive is probably a good way to win back lost favor. It shows him to be a merciful man.

How does Rome react to their defeat?

Humm, your right about Hannibal needing to "look" merciful. To be merciful even better. I'll edit that to leave the council members intact, but restrict them and their children from ever holding public office. Carthaginians were known for holding grudges for a long time, and Hannibal can't be looking behind his back like Caesar should have been.

Rome-for the most part I like Basileus' map; I might suggest a few changes later. One thing I note about the map is that Rome is no longer expansionist. If that remains true in 1AD, then Rome undergoes some fundamental changes after the Second Punic War. Make a suggestion as to where you might start and I'll give you my thoughts.

 

[burning down one side]

I got bored, so I even did a small map with an explanation...

Basically, this represents a world in 1AD where Carthage defeats Rome. Carthage dominates North Africa and Spain, its main recruiting grounds for soldiers. The cities of Sicily and South Italy retain official "independence" but in reality are pure Carthaginian vassals, ready to jump at the merest hint from their Phoenician overlords. Carthage also boasts colonies in Istria, Dalmatia, and a couple of the Greek Islands.
These colonies are sustained by the strong alliance Carthage holds with the Kingdom of Macedon. Aided by Carthaginian wealth, Macedon has been able to establish control over most of Greece, and pushed its northern frontier up to the River Danube. In a short, violent war, a Macedonian-Pontic alliance destroyed the Kingdom of Pergamon, leaving Pontus in control of the Anatolian interior, and Macedon dominating the western coastline. As a reward for support, the Macedonians allowed the Carthaginians to set up colonies on several Greek islands, which have now adopted a vibrant half Hellenic, half Punic culture.
Macedon's main rival for power in the region is Ptolemaic Egypt, which holds Crete, and is effective master of Rhodes. The Egyptians also maintain the independence of several Greek city states such as Sparta, and more notablly, Athens. Athens may not rank herself a great power anymore, but the alliance between her and Alexandria has led to Athens becoming the greatest centre of learning in the world. More importantly, democracy survives in Athena's city, and is beginning to influence their Ptolemaic allies, at least at a local level...
Egypt currently maintains a precarious control over Judea, but this is constantly threatened by her major rival for power, the Seleucid Empire, (or as it is generally known to the Egyptians due to influence from their Jewish subjects "Babylon"). The Babylonians dominate Syria, Cilicia and Mesopotamia from their twin capitals of Antioch and Seleucia. They are loosely allied to Macedon against Egypt, but their main concerns are with maintaining the Empire, a blend of Mesopotamian, Persian, Macedonian and Jewish influences. To the east they are in turn menaced by Parthia, but the threat has never been strong enough to overturn Seleucid millitary power.
In Italy, order is maintained by the Republic of Rome, which dominates the centre of the peninsula. The Romans, despite the crippling peace terms of 209BC, were able to retain control over part of Italy, and two centuries later are flourishing. Rome remains a true Republic, influenced greatly by Athens, and is very hellenized. Nonetheless, her millitary prowess remains undiminished, and Roman soldiers can often be seen in the armies of their main ally, Carthage.


Thoughts?

I think the map looks good, except I wonder what happens to Rome between the end of the thrid century BC and 1AD, that is if Rome loses to Carthage between 210-200? Does Rome simply give up on its expansionist agenda?

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

Humm, your right about Hannibal needing to "look" merciful. To be merciful even better. I'll edit that to leave the council members intact, but restrict them and their children from ever holding public office. Carthaginians were known for holding grudges for a long time, and Hannibal can't be looking behind his back like Caesar should have been.

Rome-for the most part I like Basileus' map; I might suggest a few changes later. One thing I note about the map is that Rome is no longer expansionist. If that remains true in 1AD, then Rome undergoes some fundamental changes after the Second Punic War. Make a suggestion as to where you might start and I'll give you my thoughts.

I think that in the aftermath of a Punic victory in the 2nd Punic War the Romans would probably set about starting to plan for the next war. The Romans may have lost the war, but the manpower edge that allowed them to conquer the entire Mediterranean world wouldn't suddenly disappear. In my view, although Carthage may be able to win the 2nd Punic War, it couldn't do so in the same fashion that Rome won the 2nd War, with a total dismemberment of the opposing city's possessions. Instead I expect that Rome would lose Sicily and possibly some of the southern Italian cities to a Punic alliance.

During the war Rome's Italian allies showed incredible loyalty to Rome, continuing to stick with the Roman alliance despite Hannibal's reign of terror across the Italian penisula. I think that in the aftermath of a Punic victory Rome's Italian allies are going to ask for a "seat at the table" if you will. This will probably mean Roman citizenship for leading residents of the allied cities, but I think that it might go further. I'm imagining an expansion of the Roman Senate to include new members from the allied cities. The expansion of the Senate will serve to bind the Roman-Italian alliance together much more firmly, and address issues that ultimately led to the Social War.

The expansion of the Senate to the Italian allies would also serve to really strengthen the Republic, since now the Senate can be above the mob politics of Rome. I would expect that the Senate's new role as an Italian body would also serve to make the Roman Assembly much more powerful, as the Senate become focused primarily on issues of "federal" importance and the Assembly took care of day-to-day governance.

 

[Equinox]

I think that in the aftermath of a Punic victory in the 2nd Punic War the Romans would probably set about starting to plan for the next war. The Romans may have lost the war, but the manpower edge that allowed them to conquer the entire Mediterranean world wouldn't suddenly disappear. In my view, although Carthage may be able to win the 2nd Punic War, it couldn't do so in the same fashion that Rome won the 2nd War, with a total dismemberment of the opposing city's possessions. Instead I expect that Rome would lose Sicily and possibly some of the southern Italian cities to a Punic alliance.

During the war Rome's Italian allies showed incredible loyalty to Rome, continuing to stick with the Roman alliance despite Hannibal's reign of terror across the Italian penisula. I think that in the aftermath of a Punic victory Rome's Italian allies are going to ask for a "seat at the table" if you will. This will probably mean Roman citizenship for leading residents of the allied cities, but I think that it might go further. I'm imagining an expansion of the Roman Senate to include new members from the allied cities. The expansion of the Senate will serve to bind the Roman-Italian alliance together much more firmly, and address issues that ultimately led to the Social War.

The expansion of the Senate to the Italian allies would also serve to really strengthen the Republic, since now the Senate can be above the mob politics of Rome. I would expect that the Senate's new role as an Italian body would also serve to make the Roman Assembly much more powerful, as the Senate become focused primarily on issues of "federal" importance and the Assembly took care of day-to-day governance.

It could if it had destroyed Rome. The best wartime POD in my eyes is Hasdrubal winning or avoiding the Battle of The Metaurus River. That way Hasdrubal would link up with Hannibal and Hannibal's army would now have siege weapons. Many may argue that Hannibal did not have the time to lay siege to Rome. But I offer a different strategy, Hannibal could have used the siege weapons as a way to lure the romans in and abandon the Fabian strategy. It's quite obvious Hannibal could beat them in battle it was just the problem of getting them to fight. Rome may have had a much larger manpower base then Carthage but after the battle of Cannae and Lake Trasimene, Rome was getting desperate. Old men and young children were being cast into the army and I think eventually Rome would have run out of men. Then Hannibal lays siege to Rome and Scipio is forced to abandon his campaign in Africa to face Hannibal. Now assuming Scipio loses this final battle as it would require in this scenario, Hannibal burns Rome to the ground after a however long siege. After this it would probably be a wipe up. Hannibal would have immense support and many cities wouls go over to his side and I'm assuming King Philip of Macedon would have lended troops too.

Bascially I see the terms of the treaty looking like this. Southern Italy goes to Macedon for their help and because southern Italy used to be a colony of Greece. Carthage's allies in Italy (Capua, etc.) are incorporated into the Carthaginian Empire. The rest of Italy wo uld be kept under control by a series of checks and balances. Hannibal would support rival groups of the Romans such as Estrucans and Samnites and prevent one power from gaining control. Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica would go back to Carthage.

When Hannibal gets back he is immensly popular, even more than in OTL (in OTL he became sophet of Carthage) and is able to, with the support of the people, dominate the Hundred and Four and do what he pleased with the Empire.

 

[burning down one side]

It could if it had destroyed Rome. The best wartime POD in my eyes is Hasdrubal winning or avoiding the Battle of The Metaurus River. That way Hasdrubal would link up with Hannibal and Hannibal's army would now have siege weapons. Many may argue that Hannibal did not have the time to lay siege to Rome. But I offer a different strategy, Hannibal could have used the siege weapons as a way to lure the romans in and abandon the Fabian strategy. It's quite obvious Hannibal could beat them in battle it was just the problem of getting them to fight. Rome may have had a much larger manpower base then Carthage but after the battle of Cannae and Lake Trasimene, Rome was getting desperate. Old men and young children were being cast into the army and I think eventually Rome would have run out of men. Then Hannibal lays siege to Rome and Scipio is forced to abandon his campaign in Africa to face Hannibal. Now assuming Scipio loses this final battle as it would require in this scenario, Hannibal burns Rome to the ground after a however long siege. After this it would probably be a wipe up. Hannibal would have immense support and many cities wouls go over to his side and I'm assuming King Philip of Macedon would have lended troops too.

Bascially I see the terms of the treaty looking like this. Southern Italy goes to Macedon for their help and because southern Italy used to be a colony of Greece. Carthage's allies in Italy (Capua, etc.) are incorporated into the Carthaginian Empire. The rest of Italy wo uld be kept under control by a series of checks and balances. Hannibal would support rival groups of the Romans such as Estrucans and Samnites and prevent one power from gaining control. Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica would go back to Carthage.

When Hannibal gets back he is immensly popular, even more than in OTL (in OTL he became sophet of Carthage) and is able to, with the support of the people, dominate the Hundred and Four and do what he pleased with the Empire.

I like that scenario, but I don't see Hannibal successful in a siege of Rome.

Even after defeating Scipio in central Italy, the 3 Barca brothers would still be faced with a decidedly loyal group of Latin cities. The remains of Scipio's army would have retreated to Rome, and I don't think Hannibal would have wanted to follow. Without the revolt of some Latin cities, Hannibal has no base to operate from in order to lay siege to Rome. The Etruscan cities, for the most part, remained loyal to Rome during Mago's and Hasdrubal's invasions and so did the Umbrians.

Hannibal probably would have gained some Umbrian allies after defeating Scipio, but it wouldn't get too much better than that. Scipio would be in Rome quickly raising a new army from the remnants of his own, from the city legions, from the still loyal Latin allies and from colonies like Brundisium and Rhegium. To boot, Rome likely would have pulled its remaining legions out of Sicily and Sardinia. We've got no indication that the Carthaginian fleet would have been able to stop Rome from pulling this off. Also, don't discount the possibility that Masillia would have aided Rome with its fleet and possibly by sending troops.

While Scipio put together a new army, Hannibal could take one of two approaches: 1) Offer Rome terms 2) Seek to finish Rome completely. If he chose option #2, he would have to push through Latium taking one city at a time, and this would give Rome the time it needed to prepare another army to contend with Hannibal. If Hannibal was able to push through Latium, he'd also need a supply line that didn't rely on the Carthaginian navy.

Consider also that if Numidia was fully united under Massanissa, Carthage would have them to contend with, and possibly also the Libyans who could take advantage of the situation to free themselves from Carthage as they did during the Mercenary War.

If Hannibal chose option #1, Rome almost certainly would have been ready for peace.

 

[Matthais Corvinus]

It could if it had destroyed Rome. The best wartime POD in my eyes is Hasdrubal winning or avoiding the Battle of The Metaurus River. That way Hasdrubal would link up with Hannibal and Hannibal's army would now have siege weapons. Many may argue that Hannibal did not have the time to lay siege to Rome. But I offer a different strategy, Hannibal could have used the siege weapons as a way to lure the romans in and abandon the Fabian strategy. It's quite obvious Hannibal could beat them in battle it was just the problem of getting them to fight. Rome may have had a much larger manpower base then Carthage but after the battle of Cannae and Lake Trasimene, Rome was getting desperate.

Rome may have been getting desperate, but the fact remains that Rome entered and pacified Carthage's Spanish territory after those losses. Rome clearly lost many armies, but the hallmark of the Roman Republic was a single-minded dedication to victory (aided by the manpower to be single-minded)

Old men and young children were being cast into the army and I think eventually Rome would have run out of men. Then Hannibal lays siege to Rome and Scipio is forced to abandon his campaign in Africa to face Hannibal. Now assuming Scipio loses this final battle as it would require in this scenario, Hannibal burns Rome to the ground after a however long siege. After this it would probably be a wipe up. Hannibal would have immense support and many cities wouls go over to his side and I'm assuming King Philip of Macedon would have lended troops too.

I just don't think that Hannibal would be able to maintain a siege long enough to take and destroy Rome the way that you're suggesting. The Italian allies spend over a decade with Hannibal in Italy, burning, looting, and beating Roman armies. And they still stuck with Rome.

I can definitely see if Hannibal beats Scipio and lays siege to Rome the Romans throwing in the towel and suing for peace. And I can see the peace being harsh. But Hannibal simply didn't have the ability to destroy Rome. IMO.

Bascially I see the terms of the treaty looking like this. Southern Italy goes to Macedon for their help and because southern Italy used to be a colony of Greece. Carthage's allies in Italy (Capua, etc.) are incorporated into the Carthaginian Empire. The rest of Italy would be kept under control by a series of checks and balances. Hannibal would support rival groups of the Romans such as Estrucans and Samnites and prevent one power from gaining control. Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica would go back to Carthage.

I can see Capua and the other "traitor" (look I'm thinking like the revauchist Italian-Romans already!) cities going over to Carthage and Carthage taking the islands. But I think that core of Italian allies that stayed with Rome in the war will stay with Rome in the peace. Albeit with some concessions from the Romans.

When Hannibal gets back he is immensely popular, even more than in OTL (in OTL he became sophet of Carthage) and is able to, with the support of the people, dominate the Hundred and Four and do what he pleased with the Empire.

He had internal enemies in Carthage for whom he could blame his inability to deliver the death-blow to Rome. He is going to want to enact some reforms, if only to correct problems that he sees in Carthage (he undertook a campaign of reform OTL following the defeat in the 2nd Punic War, it would seem that he would attempt reforms if he won as well). Reform=change=unhappiness, and as I have predicted before, potential civil war.

If Carthage and Rome both undergo some reforms, well the 3rd Punic War is going to be even more fun than the 2nd!

 

[burning down one side]

Rome will have its hands full after the peace with Carthage and Phillip. I agree that the Latins and other allies are likely to push hard for a reward, and the Roman Senate, as reluctant as it would be to do so, would have to offer that reward or risk losing everything.

Rome grants all Latin communities full citizenship. The Etruscan cities that were never under suspicion of wanting to bolt are granted some citizenship rights, but full citizenship no. The Roman colonies that remained loyal also receive full citizenship. There were 9 of 12 colonies left that refused to give Rome troops as the war wore on-those 9 colonies suffer punishment-they lose their autonomy. Rome seeds those towns with colonial transplants from former Roman colonies in the south and from Cremona, Placentia and Mutina-all lost to the Insubres and Boii;Rome promises to look at the citizenship scenario for those towns again in the future.

Liguria and the Gaullic tribes are independent, but Carthage assures that the treaties ending the war with them carefully lays out the boundaries between Roman and tribal territory.

After a period of adjustment during which many older families of Rome struggle against implementing the new citizenship allowances, eventually finding themselves increasingly marginalized, a new Senate asserts itself. This Senate is still a 'Roman' Senate in every sense the old one was; the Latins consider themselves Romans first. This Senate seeks to maintain good relations with Carthage and new Carthaginian subjects to the south, while meantime keeping its 'eyes' open to opprtunities to take advantage of signs of discontent in the south.

 

[Equinox]

Even after defeating Scipio in central Italy, the 3 Barca brothers would still be faced with a decidedly loyal group of Latin cities. The remains of Scipio's army would have retreated to Rome, and I don't think Hannibal would have wanted to follow. Without the revolt of some Latin cities, Hannibal has no base to operate from in order to lay siege to Rome. The Etruscan cities, for the most part, remained loyal to Rome during Mago's and Hasdrubal's invasions and so did the Umbrians.Hannibal probably would have gained some Umbrian allies after defeating Scipio, but it wouldn't get too much better than that. Scipio would be in Rome quickly raising a new army from the remnants of his own, from the city legions, from the still loyal Latin allies and from colonies like Brundisium and Rhegium. To boot, Rome likely would have pulled its remaining legions out of Sicily and Sardinia. We've got no indication that the Carthaginian fleet would have been able to stop Rome from pulling this off. Also, don't discount the possibility that Masillia would have aided Rome with its fleet and possibly by sending troops.

But don't you think more cities would rebel after the defeat of one of Rome's greatest generals? Many did it after Cannae and now I think after such a defeat they would rebel again. Rome was getting desperate at this point and Scipio was one of the few competent generals during this war. After a while the situation would get more desperate for the Romans no doubt. As far as I know Carthage wasn't exactly supporting Hannibal and friends in the first place. They saw this war as an aggression of his own and wanted nothing to do with it and him. Numidia and Iberia would indeed be problems but not as much of a threat without Scipio roaming around North Africa. No doubt they would have been crushed after the war.

I just don't think that Hannibal would be able to maintain a siege long enough to take and destroy Rome the way that you're suggesting. The Italian allies spend over a decade with Hannibal in Italy, burning, looting, and beating Roman armies. And they still stuck with Rome.

I can definitely see if Hannibal beats Scipio and lays siege to Rome the Romans throwing in the towel and suing for peace. And I can see the peace being harsh. But Hannibal simply didn't have the ability to destroy Rome. IMO

Hannibal wouldnt lay siege to Rome right after defeating Scipio. Like I said before. With siege weapons he becomes a much more of a threat. Unlike before he was just an army and Rome would not have to fight him, that is the reason the fabian strategy was enacted in the first place because Rome was getting desperate. If Hannibal threatens to lay siege to Rome then the rest of the Roman armies would have to face Hannibal or risk their capital city being taken. After the manpower has been exhausted Hannibal lays siege to Rome.

I can see Capua and the other "traitor" (look I'm thinking like the revauchist Italian-Romans already!) cities going over to Carthage and Carthage taking the islands. But I think that core of Italian allies that stayed with Rome in the war will stay with Rome in the peace. Albeit with some concessions from the Romans.

Basically what I am suggesting is that Carthage strengthens the various factions in Italy to prevent Rome from gaining strength again. Think about it: would you rather stay the subject of a weakened power and have limited rights or overthrow the Romans and create your own nation?

He had internal enemies in Carthage for whom he could blame his inability to deliver the death-blow to Rome. He is going to want to enact some reforms, if only to correct problems that he sees in Carthage (he undertook a campaign of reform OTL following the defeat in the 2nd Punic War, it would seem that he would attempt reforms if he won as well). Reform=change=unhappiness, and as I have predicted before, potential civil war.

He also had immense popularity and support from the populace. Even in OTL when he failed to defeat Rome he still managed to come into power and enact many reforms in Carthage and the Hundred and Four and other aristocrats were unable to silence him. Think about how much more popular he would be if he managed to return victorious, whether he actually destroyed Rome or not? The Hundred and Four would be unable to stop him and he would ignore their opinion and enact reforms with support of the populace.

If Carthage and Rome both undergo some reforms, well the 3rd Punic War is going to be even more fun than the 2nd!

Indeed, especially if the peace treaty was not as harse and Rome was not destroyed it would truly be an epic war.


You must also remember that in the 2nd war Philip of Macedon promised troops in Italy and dragged his feet and soon before he knew it the war was over. After a while he would place an army on Italy and greatly improve the situation for Hannibal.

 

[burning down one side]

After the end of the civil war in 197, Carthage would have to turn its attention to the Numidian Civil War. Since Hannibal pledged support for Massanissa, the Carthaginians went to work helping Massanissa to defeat Syphax. The help was hardly necessary by this time as Massanissa had captured Cirta; evenso, the Carthaginians helped finish off rebel resistance.

By 195 Massanissa was in complete and undisputed control of Numidia.

The issues faced by the Carthaginian Council included rebuilding a neglected navy. The admiral Bomilcar was dismissed immediately at the end of the civil war. A new port was commissioned that would eventually be able to hold 200 triremes. Carthaginian finances were overflowing due in part to the money paid yearly by Rome.

Garrisons were spread out over the Med. Sardinia, coastal Iberian towns southern Italy and Sicily were among these locations. Going forward Carthage would spend the money to keep a larger military presence on land as well as on water. In order to accomplish this the mines of central Spain would be exploited using primarily slave labor. These are the same mines that kept Carthage in the money during the Second Punic War, and there was no sign at this time that the mines would become exhausted anytime soon.

As Carthage went back to begin working the mines in earnest, many nearby Iberian tribes revolted, and soon Carthage was faced once again with having to suppress these volatile tribes. Thus for the next several years, spanning from about 192-185 Carthage had its hands full in Iberia.

Rome keeps its 'eyes' open for an opportunity to war with Carthage again. Meanwhile,things heat up in the east.

 

[burning down one side]

Request for assistance: The East

My knowledge of the Eastern geopolitical situation in the latter part of the 3rd century is limited. I've researched it some over the past few weeks, but could use the assistance of someone more knowledgable in that to assist in creating what might become a Carthaginian controlled Mediterranean.

Any volunteers?

 

[burning down one side]

Carthage and Rome after 209

The Spanish revolt lasted one year. Hannibal and Hasdrubal campaigned in southwest Spain during 192-191. The tribes quite the rebellion easily when confronted by the skills of the Barcid brothers.

However, the tribes there were given more reason for concern. Hannibal 'recommended' to his fellow council members that Carthage set up a couple colonies in the interior of south central Spain for the purpose of securing the area. Further, he advocated building a few roads (basically exact duplication of Roman roads) that would connect Gades and New Carthage with the mines and the new colonies. The colonists were to come from Carthaginian natives, Carthaginian citizens of towns near Carthage and from some of Hannibal's veterens who were facing extreme racism in Carthage and were eager to move elsewhere.

When these plans became known to the Spainiards, revolt flared once again in 189.

Since 208 Rome had received a wave of immigration from Greeks, Latins and dispossed Romans from the south of Italy. The only emmigration was from a number of powerful Etruscan families that had thrown their lot in with the Carthaginians during Mago's invasion. A couple thousand Etruscans were granted passage as part of the treaty ending the 2nd war. These settled in Campaignia.

Rome had to settle the thousands somewhere. The nine colonies were prime destinations for the Latins and colonial Romans. The Greeks were settled in coastal towns such as Pisae, Teanum Siculum and Anconia on the Adriatic.

 

[Adamanteus]

Your Challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to have Carthage end up with all the lands of the Romans at their hight.

Bonus points if you find a way to give them even more land.

More Bonus points if you tell what the culture of the world is like after that.

Hannibal implants his animals into the Carthaginian Council, before the second Punic War, such that he gains the state's full support in the war. While pillaging Italy, he receives reinforcements that prevent the Roman flank attacks into Spain and Africa. Eventually, more desperate Italians defect, depriving Rome of manpower to wage war, and it capitulates. Rome initially becomes a tributary state, with southern Italy claimed by Carthage as ample territorial compensation. In a generation or two, Carthage decides to conquer Rome outright after some perceived threat, thereby making all of Italy its possession.

With Carthage occupying the position of Rome in the Mediterranean, it goes on a series of military adventures, eventually conquering the entire Mediterranean.

I can't throw in Gaul or Britain. Sorry.

 

[burning down one side]

Philip's War and Aftermath 208-195BC

208-206: The Barca brothers and the Carthaginian fleet aid Philip (per treaty between Hannibal and Philip) "making war with whomever Philip chose". The conquests of Philip included most of Illyria and the Aeotolian League. With the dismantling of the Aeotolian League, only Philip's allies the Achaean League and Epirus remained independent; the Dalmatians broke off from Illyria as it fell to Philip.

A large portion of the Carthaginian navy remained in the Aegean until 204 to blockade a few towns still resisting Philip.

204: Philip and Antiochus sign a treaty allowing for each to attack the Ptolemaic Empire. As Antiochus attacked Ptolemy in the east, Philip disregarded the opportunity and instead focused on completing the conquest of Thrace.

203-195: Philip engages in sporadic warfare with Thrace, finally pushing Macedon's borders to the Rhodope and Stranzha mountains by 195.

 

[burning down one side]

More on Rome after 208

After the end of the second war the prime issues in the Roman Senate were:

1) Paying back to Carthage the money taken from New Carthage as demanded by Hannibal. Rome was given only 3 months to repay.

2) Ensuring that the first years indemnity due Carthage could be paid. The indemnity was to continue through 194, thus 15 years of payments.

3) Paying to maintain at least 3 legions for defense.

4) Keeping as much of the navy operational as possible. As it worked out, Rome was able to keep only 50-60 ships in operation for the next decade.

5) Settling on a foreign policy. Some Roman families wanted to pursue a policy of expansion into Gaul when their economy recovered, while others sought to wait things out longer and confront Carthage so all Italy could be reclaimed. In the meantime the Senate was in agreement that cooperation with Carthage was the only viable policy.

6) Bringing the Latin families into the Senate. It took two years, but by 206 the Latins had full citizenship, and their most influential families were integrated into the Roman Senate. Some Roman families never fully accepted this.

7) Dealing with the pressure for more land as the Roman population increased.

A map is coming in the near future showing the western Med. in 208.

 

[burning down one side]

Meditteranean in 208 BC






This is my first map on this forum. It's a bit crude, but I believe it's clear enough for the purpose.

The peace treaty of 208 between Rome and Carthage gave Carthage control of Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, the Lipari Islands and all islands off the Sicilian coast. Carthage also gained control of coastal southern Italy. Hispania was made entirely off limits to Rome, that is, Rome could not make an ally for itself of any the peoples south of the Pyrenees.

The bulk of southern Italy was composed of independent city-states. Each of these was bound to Carthage by treaty of alliance. (light green)

Rome was compelled to sign a treaty with the Macedonians, the Gauls and Ligurians as well. The treaty with Macedon forbid Rome from allying itself to any of the peoples in Greece. Rome’s Illyrian holdings were given to Macedon.

The treaties with Gaul and Liguria set firm borders between Roman and non-Roman territory. Rome lost all its colonies and trade posts in their territories.

The Illyrians (purple) revolted as soon as Philip tried to assert authority over the area. This situation was resolved with Carthaginian assistance during King Philip’s War, 208-206.