AH Challenge: Another Juche State
- Thread starter wormyguy
- Start date
Sumeragi
Banned
Juche only came into existence as a solid ideology in the 1960's, after the Sino-Soviet split. Given this time limit, most likely we could have some of the more socialist-oriented African groups be supported by DPRK in their takeover of a colony/country, leading to something like a Juche state.
One good example: Mugabe.
One good example: Mugabe.
Alex Richards
Donor
The issue is that Juche is essentially a Stalinist dictatorship merged with absolute monarchy and with elements of a pharonic god-king like theocracy with Christian ideas thrown in for good measure. It's very hard to convince someone else to completely adopt it.
Perhaps the Central African Empire?
Perhaps the Central African Empire?
What about Romania? I heard they had close links with the DPRK and Ceausescu was interested in Juche. And given that he's as insane as any of the Kims and ruthless to boot, I think he'd make a great candidate for Juche dictator #2.
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Romania under Ceaucescu was pretty much as close to a European Juche you can get.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
Albania also partially qualified as another European Juche state, given their short association with the DPRK.
twovultures
Donor
My impression of Juche was that in practice it is state-sponsored Korean racism and therefore not very exportable as an ideology. I suppose the theory of political independence, autarchy and the militarization of society could be put into practice by an African nation-but you don't need close ties to North Korea to do that, all of these elements have been used by post-independent African leaders (though not always simultaneously).
In addition, aside from building hideous statues North Korea does not have a lot to offer on its own. In competition with Britain, the US, France, China and (at one point) the Soviet Union? North Korea will simply be ignored by African nations if it tries to bully them into accepting a silly, unworkable ideology in exchange for its pitifully useless aid. The African nations can and will choose more flexible allies as soon as it suits their purpose.
In addition, aside from building hideous statues North Korea does not have a lot to offer on its own. In competition with Britain, the US, France, China and (at one point) the Soviet Union? North Korea will simply be ignored by African nations if it tries to bully them into accepting a silly, unworkable ideology in exchange for its pitifully useless aid. The African nations can and will choose more flexible allies as soon as it suits their purpose.
Well North Korea has always had a public face and a private face. The whole Nazi-esque racism they tend to keep to themselves (and woe to anyone so foolish as to go there without being well-guarded), but to other countries they insist Juche is simply an ideology of self-reliance and all that jazz. I think their relations with Romania were so close that Romanian was actually the only foreign language taught in their schools, or at least one of the only. I don't really think it to be leap to have Ceausescu officially adopt the ideology of Juche and start calling his country a Juche state. It would make relations with the USSR worse, but he wasn't on good terms with them anyways, even the commies have standards of course. And IIRC I think Mugabe, or at least his faction, actually received North Korean support in the civil war in the form of arms and even advisers training them. Not sure how likely it is that Mugabe would cuddle up to them, but it would create an interesting situation, especially if you have 3 Juche states hanging around as a new miniature Nazi-pseudobloc in the Cold War, though I don't see Ceausescu lasting any longer than he did OTL.
Paging - His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Alhaji Dr. Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE
Paging - His Excellency President for Life, Field Marshal Alhaji Dr. Idi Amin Dada, VC, DSO, MC, CBE
on that note Libya under Muammar Gaddafi seems a lot like North Korea (well at times, Gaddafi changed his mind a lot)
Sumeragi
Banned
The ultranationalist aspect became strong starting from the 1990's, as Kim Il Sung was getting distant from the working of the government and the consolidation of Kim Jong Il's power. Before that time, it was still mostly a "each nation should have its own Great Leader to lead the nation to a society that is man-centered".
The concept of the Great Leader is an important contribution.
Not sure why you're saying countries cannot have other allies when having DPRK as a friend. But since you've brought out what does DPRK have to contribute..... Military/security training. Kim Jong Il was fundamental in helping Mugabe go through the Gukurahundi (with the result of Mugabe supporters saying the Deal Leader was "a lovely man and a great friend" after the death). If we have Kim Jong Il being a bit more forceful, we might have him send Cuba-style expeditionary forces which provides a strong backbone for dictatorships.
Delta Force
Banned
I think that Zimbabwe had some Juche influences. I also agree that Africa would be the most likely place for Juche to take hold, in socialist or Marxist influenced countries soon after independence.
1337indahouse
Banned
More accurately it's a rip-off of Maoism to feed Korean nationalist chauvinism (seriously) mixed with Imperial Japanese emperor-worship.
1337indahouse
Banned
Juche isnt really nazi racism, it's more of "We're so awesome and so pure other countries keep fucking us over" type thing. The 'purity and uniformity of the Korean race" is something South Koreans believed in for a period of time, before it died out recently (ROK didnt promote it so it died out w/ the older generations)
It was from the beginning due to the emperor worship transplaced into DPRK. It wasnt a very socialist state until say 1950
http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11315/T...oreans+See+Themselves+And+Why+It+Matters.aspx
IDK, some country in Africa (Ethiopia, Nigeria, etc...). I found this photo (I don't own it) showing Kim Il Sung next to a bunch of Africans-Indians:
twovultures
Donor
I wasn't saying that other countries couldn't have other allies if they were friends with North Korea, although depending on North Korea's behavior towards the more powerful nations, an African country might have to choose between keeping aid a powerful ally and keeping it's 'friendship' with North Korea. I'll leave you to guess who is more likely to get appeased in this scenario.
It's a good point that Mugabe received aid from North Korea. However, I don't think that Cuba-style expeditions would help either North Korea or it's allies very much. Che Guevara considered his expedition to the Congo and abject failure, and there are just so many things that could go wrong with a Korean expeditionary force. It could end up particularly counterproductive for the DPRK if they end up becoming involved in failed or even stalemated revolutions/rebellions.
Sumeragi
Banned
That is a very wrong assumption. In the beginning the cult personality was not much different from the other communist countries, with a deep focus on internationalism and admiration of the great four communism fathers. Yes, there was the State Shinto and Christian element, but those did not blossom until the Cultural Revolution erupted and caused the Sino-Soviet Split, and the full-blown emphasis on purity came around the 1990's. This was a step-by-step process, not an all-in-one-scope implanting of an ideology.
I haven't read that particular book (but know of it), and if it said DPRK was that nationalistic from the beginning, then it's transplanting the present into the past, which by all means is just wrong. It's a common mistake I seem when people study DPRK.
That's true. I was more focusing on a stronger link, but we'll have to see who would be the one to accept such help.
Sumeragi
Banned
Our Colonel is too wacky to be fixed into the Juche moldso no one going to touch Libya as a Juche state?