Hmm, so does this mean that later in the war when the U.S. is (hopefully) winning that Orkney will be ITTL Okinawa?
A New Balance
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
Battle of Denmark Straits Pt II
VB-15
Somewhere over the North Atlantic
February 7 1939
Lt Ben Washington was checking his navigation as he and the rest of his squadron were making their way to strike the British. His gunner, a 3rd class from Cuba was scanning the sky for the British fighters. By his math they were about 60 miles out from the British fleet and he knew things were about to get dicey. But then again Uncle Sam didn’t pay him to set safety at a desk either. For Washington, he wouldn’t have it any other way. Not after busting his ass to get through high school then get appointed to Annapolis with his parents having nothing to give him but their support. Then again being black and coming from Mississippi it took a lot to get where he was.
Even with the major civil rights reforms within the aftermath of the Great War, for poor blacks within the nation it was still hard to get ahead. It was mainly they didn’t have much to start with and in poor states like Mississippi there wasn’t much hope. Things have improved by leaps and bounds through. They didn’t have to worry about being lynched anymore, and more importantly they could vote. This radically changed the political makeup of the south. It was one of the many reasons that even in the aftermath of the Depression of 28 the South returned more Republican congressmen than any other part of the nation. The blacks in the south trusted Republicans a whole hell of a lot more than any Democratic politician. Things were slowly changing as the last die hards in the South died out and blacks were accepted by many across the nation.
Yet for a poor kid from Mississippi flying the Vindicator[1] was a dream come true. Currently he was carrying a 1,000 armored piecing bomb on his center line at the moment. Further he had a pair of 50 cals that were synchronized with the propeller of his aircraft. His 3 class gunner’s mate had a pair of 30 cal machine guns to keep the rear clear from the limeys. Even through they had radios they were flying under EMCON right now. They didn’t want to let the limeys to know what was coming their way. This forced Washington to keep his head on a swivel as they were using hand signals to take between aircraft at the moment.
Washington didn’t need hand signals to deal him he and his squadron were nearing the British fleet. It seemed that the torpedo bombers had reached the British first and were tearing things up down on the deck. With the torpedo bombers causing hell the radio circuit came to life as the squadron commander decided to break EMCON. The orders were to hit the carriers. “All Top Hat Elements our target is the Indomitable Class Carrier at our two o’clock.
Looking to his two o’clock position Washington saw one of the three Indomitable class CVs of the Royal Navy. It was make a radical turn to deal with the torpedo bombers that were on the deck. But with British fighters on the deck dealing with them. With the limey gunners also shooting at the torpedo bombers, the Top Hats were going to get in clean. Getting out would be harder, but that was the nature of the beast. Washington started to bring his plane into attack position to hit the British carrier. Once in position Washington pointed his bomber down to dive on the British. Both he and his 3rd class could feel the Gs as he dove on the British.
The British who spotted the American dive bombers tried to rapidly train their guns on the new threat they were facing. However, it wasn’t fast enough as the American dive bombers were dropping their bombs before the British could even open fire on them. And they were paying the price. Four of their five carriers were burning and taking on water by the time the Americans broke off and headed for home. Only they had caught them with empty decks.
[1] SBD Dauntless
Somewhere over the North Atlantic
February 7 1939
Lt Ben Washington was checking his navigation as he and the rest of his squadron were making their way to strike the British. His gunner, a 3rd class from Cuba was scanning the sky for the British fighters. By his math they were about 60 miles out from the British fleet and he knew things were about to get dicey. But then again Uncle Sam didn’t pay him to set safety at a desk either. For Washington, he wouldn’t have it any other way. Not after busting his ass to get through high school then get appointed to Annapolis with his parents having nothing to give him but their support. Then again being black and coming from Mississippi it took a lot to get where he was.
Even with the major civil rights reforms within the aftermath of the Great War, for poor blacks within the nation it was still hard to get ahead. It was mainly they didn’t have much to start with and in poor states like Mississippi there wasn’t much hope. Things have improved by leaps and bounds through. They didn’t have to worry about being lynched anymore, and more importantly they could vote. This radically changed the political makeup of the south. It was one of the many reasons that even in the aftermath of the Depression of 28 the South returned more Republican congressmen than any other part of the nation. The blacks in the south trusted Republicans a whole hell of a lot more than any Democratic politician. Things were slowly changing as the last die hards in the South died out and blacks were accepted by many across the nation.
Yet for a poor kid from Mississippi flying the Vindicator[1] was a dream come true. Currently he was carrying a 1,000 armored piecing bomb on his center line at the moment. Further he had a pair of 50 cals that were synchronized with the propeller of his aircraft. His 3 class gunner’s mate had a pair of 30 cal machine guns to keep the rear clear from the limeys. Even through they had radios they were flying under EMCON right now. They didn’t want to let the limeys to know what was coming their way. This forced Washington to keep his head on a swivel as they were using hand signals to take between aircraft at the moment.
Washington didn’t need hand signals to deal him he and his squadron were nearing the British fleet. It seemed that the torpedo bombers had reached the British first and were tearing things up down on the deck. With the torpedo bombers causing hell the radio circuit came to life as the squadron commander decided to break EMCON. The orders were to hit the carriers. “All Top Hat Elements our target is the Indomitable Class Carrier at our two o’clock.
Looking to his two o’clock position Washington saw one of the three Indomitable class CVs of the Royal Navy. It was make a radical turn to deal with the torpedo bombers that were on the deck. But with British fighters on the deck dealing with them. With the limey gunners also shooting at the torpedo bombers, the Top Hats were going to get in clean. Getting out would be harder, but that was the nature of the beast. Washington started to bring his plane into attack position to hit the British carrier. Once in position Washington pointed his bomber down to dive on the British. Both he and his 3rd class could feel the Gs as he dove on the British.
The British who spotted the American dive bombers tried to rapidly train their guns on the new threat they were facing. However, it wasn’t fast enough as the American dive bombers were dropping their bombs before the British could even open fire on them. And they were paying the price. Four of their five carriers were burning and taking on water by the time the Americans broke off and headed for home. Only they had caught them with empty decks.
[1] SBD Dauntless
Admiral Halsey
Banned
Eastern front is still gonna be hell for the Germans and don't even get me started on The Pacific war. That side of the war I imagine is gonna border on Tepes territory especially if the Japanese mainland has to be invaded.
Your post just reminded me that all of the German Jewish physicist that left Germany IOTL are still in Germany ITTL.
A new balance indeed.
Admiral Halsey
Banned
True though I would imagine a couple still emigrated. If just for the reason of not getting caught in a potential war zone. TTLs version of the Manhattan project is also gonna be interesting sinc e theoretically you could have four nations all involved in the making of it.
I could easily see Germany, Britain and the USA with a nuclear research program and maybe the Soviets too (are we calling the Russian communist Soviets ITTL? I've forgotten), could the Japanese with British help have one as well?
The Japanese could have some theoretical work but even ITTL I don't see their industrial plant/economy able to build one, also where do they get the uranium? You might see the Germans and the USA cooperating like the British and the USA OTL. While Germany isn't getting hit like OTL, the USA does have a lot of space away from any potential attack to build the facilities, and lots of electrical power to spare.
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Well I presume Japan would get their uranium from the same place the North Koreans do, North Korea
Wow it when from a battle in the Denmark Straits to A-bomb projects. Just wow.
Let me put it to you like this, there are more than a few Atomic Bomb programs going on right now ITL. The British, Americans, Germans, Soviets, Japanese, French, and Italian all have some kind of a program. Now how likely said program is likely to get a bomb is another story or be co-opped by a larger nation.
Sooner or later I will have to do a few detail updates about the state of nuclear weapons before mushroom clouds start popping up.
Let me put it to you like this, there are more than a few Atomic Bomb programs going on right now ITL. The British, Americans, Germans, Soviets, Japanese, French, and Italian all have some kind of a program. Now how likely said program is likely to get a bomb is another story or be co-opped by a larger nation.
Sooner or later I will have to do a few detail updates about the state of nuclear weapons before mushroom clouds start popping up.
Seconded. How does the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland run a nuclear weapons program from the Home Countries? I suppose that they may try to have it in South Africa or India. Then all they would need is an unmolested ocean to transit to and from it. Good luck with that.
Admiral Halsey
Banned
I'm imagining the German, French, Italian and American programs merge into one. Most likely based in the US mainly due to it being the safest place and at no risk of direct attack. Germany and the US would be equal partners with the French and Italians being given some bits and pieces but more or less still having to make the thing themselves. Honestly I do imagine you could get the bomb a year or two earlier if you solely aim for a gun type bomb. I'm thinking that if the Russian's are still in the fight the first one is used on Moscow otherwise it's Japan bound.
Battle of Denmark Straits Pt III
USS Langley, CV-21
North Atlantic
February 7 1939
Vice Admiral Armbruster was gripping the railing as the Langley was performing a radical turn to make itself a harder target for the torpedoes that had been launched at it by the British. He had been watching the attack from the bridge of the Langley as it was at this point the battle was out of his hands. The British had found his fleet and had launched their attack. The CAP had torn into the limeys hard but they were still able to get to his carriers even with reduced numbers. Now it was up to the ship’s captains to make the limeys miss and he was just along for the ride.
The different 5 inch, 3 inch, and various machine guns on the Langley were firing as they could load their guns and pull the trigger. One of the smart ass gunner’s mates would later say the Triple-A was so thick you could had stuck a smoke out in the air and it would be lit. It wasn’t true through as you were more likely to get your arm blown off for your troubles for trying such a stunt. But every ship in the task force was indeed firing their anti-aircraft guns for everything they were worth. Of note through was the fact that the USS Havana CLAA-198[1] had been issued a special new shell and she was having a deadly effect with those shells.
As the Langley started to come up from the radical turn Armbruster knew that her captain had been able to make the torpedoes miss her. What was unknown to him was one of the men forward had taken a photo of the British torpedoes passing within feet of the hull of the Langley. For Armbruster through he picked up his spy glass to see what the damage was to his task force. It was when he spotted the Lake Champlain that he saw that his fleet hadn’t come out of that untouched. The Lake Champlain was listing to starboard by about 7 or 8 degrees by Armbruster’s eye and was possibly down slightly aft. Flight operations were damn sure out of the question for her.
Yet other than the Champlain, his carriers were all in good shape from what he was seeing through his spyglass. The British Griffon fighter/dive bomber was totally outclassed by the American Navy’s F6F Wildcat[2] fighter. It forced almost every Griffon to drop their bombs to fight for their life. Together with the smaller carrier air wings carried by British Carriers meant it quickly between a bloodbath for the British. The only reason their Amberjack torpedo bombers got as far as they did was because there simply wasn’t enough F6Fs to deal with everything. Four different American fighter pilots turned the famous ace in a day trick in this massive fur ball. Another nine pilots came within a kill of turning that trick.
With the attack over Armbruster started to the CIC of the carrier. It was close to the bridge and only took a moment to get there. Once there he quickly figured out where things stood. Only the Lake Champlain had taken major damage in the attack. But the numbers on British aircraft shot down seemed to be high at first glance but given what Armbruster saw from Bridge he would believe it. Now he needed to see how his strike did, but he gave out the order to start prepping for another strike.
[1] Havana Class Light Anti-Air Cruiser, 7,900 tons displacement, 34 knots, 16 x 5/38s in Twin turrets Triple superfiring fore and aft, plus wing turrets, 20 x 1.1 Inch Autocannons quad mount, various machine guns
[2] F4F Wildcat
North Atlantic
February 7 1939
Vice Admiral Armbruster was gripping the railing as the Langley was performing a radical turn to make itself a harder target for the torpedoes that had been launched at it by the British. He had been watching the attack from the bridge of the Langley as it was at this point the battle was out of his hands. The British had found his fleet and had launched their attack. The CAP had torn into the limeys hard but they were still able to get to his carriers even with reduced numbers. Now it was up to the ship’s captains to make the limeys miss and he was just along for the ride.
The different 5 inch, 3 inch, and various machine guns on the Langley were firing as they could load their guns and pull the trigger. One of the smart ass gunner’s mates would later say the Triple-A was so thick you could had stuck a smoke out in the air and it would be lit. It wasn’t true through as you were more likely to get your arm blown off for your troubles for trying such a stunt. But every ship in the task force was indeed firing their anti-aircraft guns for everything they were worth. Of note through was the fact that the USS Havana CLAA-198[1] had been issued a special new shell and she was having a deadly effect with those shells.
As the Langley started to come up from the radical turn Armbruster knew that her captain had been able to make the torpedoes miss her. What was unknown to him was one of the men forward had taken a photo of the British torpedoes passing within feet of the hull of the Langley. For Armbruster through he picked up his spy glass to see what the damage was to his task force. It was when he spotted the Lake Champlain that he saw that his fleet hadn’t come out of that untouched. The Lake Champlain was listing to starboard by about 7 or 8 degrees by Armbruster’s eye and was possibly down slightly aft. Flight operations were damn sure out of the question for her.
Yet other than the Champlain, his carriers were all in good shape from what he was seeing through his spyglass. The British Griffon fighter/dive bomber was totally outclassed by the American Navy’s F6F Wildcat[2] fighter. It forced almost every Griffon to drop their bombs to fight for their life. Together with the smaller carrier air wings carried by British Carriers meant it quickly between a bloodbath for the British. The only reason their Amberjack torpedo bombers got as far as they did was because there simply wasn’t enough F6Fs to deal with everything. Four different American fighter pilots turned the famous ace in a day trick in this massive fur ball. Another nine pilots came within a kill of turning that trick.
With the attack over Armbruster started to the CIC of the carrier. It was close to the bridge and only took a moment to get there. Once there he quickly figured out where things stood. Only the Lake Champlain had taken major damage in the attack. But the numbers on British aircraft shot down seemed to be high at first glance but given what Armbruster saw from Bridge he would believe it. Now he needed to see how his strike did, but he gave out the order to start prepping for another strike.
[1] Havana Class Light Anti-Air Cruiser, 7,900 tons displacement, 34 knots, 16 x 5/38s in Twin turrets Triple superfiring fore and aft, plus wing turrets, 20 x 1.1 Inch Autocannons quad mount, various machine guns
[2] F4F Wildcat
I would bet the Admiral is correct.
The USN strike had 4 out of 5 British carriers hit hard. Some will sink, and I doubt if more than one of the ones that don't sink will be in any shape to conduct flight operations. The surviving British aircraft may end up landing on one carrier, and many of the planes pushed overboard once crews extracted due to lack of space for them. In any case the British, if they are smart and expect the RN will be smart, will turn around and beat feet for the closest British port and land based air cover as fast as they can. Iceland and Greenland forces are toast, but better to lose them than lose even more of the RN. The question is how much daylight is left, days are short in February that far north, and are the RN carriers still in range. Also, will the USN aircraft be able to get "home" before dark, and if not will the admiral turn on the lights.
After this Iceland and everything west will belong to the USA. Between Iceland and Ireland/Britain will be an ugly and contested bit of ocean. The RN may send some light units west to raid, and submarines, but heavy units no way as the Iceland and Greenland air bases will be back in US hands and up and running in short order.
Reykjavik to London is about 1025nm, obviously shorter to any Irish targets, the west coast of the UK, and only 725nm to Glasgow. Combat radius of the B-17 was around 800-1,000 miles depending on model and bomb load. I expect ITTL the USA has a B-17 equivalent, so bombing Ireland (including key ports and shipyards) as well as the same in Scotland and the west of England is possible. Until the longer range B-24 equivalents arrive, London is just a bit too far.
The USN strike had 4 out of 5 British carriers hit hard. Some will sink, and I doubt if more than one of the ones that don't sink will be in any shape to conduct flight operations. The surviving British aircraft may end up landing on one carrier, and many of the planes pushed overboard once crews extracted due to lack of space for them. In any case the British, if they are smart and expect the RN will be smart, will turn around and beat feet for the closest British port and land based air cover as fast as they can. Iceland and Greenland forces are toast, but better to lose them than lose even more of the RN. The question is how much daylight is left, days are short in February that far north, and are the RN carriers still in range. Also, will the USN aircraft be able to get "home" before dark, and if not will the admiral turn on the lights.
After this Iceland and everything west will belong to the USA. Between Iceland and Ireland/Britain will be an ugly and contested bit of ocean. The RN may send some light units west to raid, and submarines, but heavy units no way as the Iceland and Greenland air bases will be back in US hands and up and running in short order.
Reykjavik to London is about 1025nm, obviously shorter to any Irish targets, the west coast of the UK, and only 725nm to Glasgow. Combat radius of the B-17 was around 800-1,000 miles depending on model and bomb load. I expect ITTL the USA has a B-17 equivalent, so bombing Ireland (including key ports and shipyards) as well as the same in Scotland and the west of England is possible. Until the longer range B-24 equivalents arrive, London is just a bit too far.
Battle of Denmark Straits Pt IV
USS Langley, CV-21
North Atlantic
February 7 1939
Vice Admiral Armbruster was reviewing the debriefs from the squadrons that had returned from the strike on the British. The reports were they left four British carriers burning. That was an impressive strike but he wanted to remove all five carriers today so he could move to striking the limey invasion fleet. Because from the reports the Marines and Icelander Territorial Guard was getting their ass handed to them by the British. He also knew that a massive convoy was forming up at Halifax to relieve the those forces on Iceland that were fighting for their life. However Admiral Johnson had made it clear no surface ships were to enter the Denmark Straits unless they have cleared the road. Armbruster wanted to on the road.
Further with reports that have been growing over the last few days of the British invading the Faroe Islands, Armbruster understood America must have control of Iceland. With the British in control of both Iceland and the Faroe Islands it would make it just about impossible even to reach their allies in Europe even via transport submarine[1]. Iceland was the all critical forward operating base designed to strike the British over the head with a sledgehammer. It was why the US basically forced the Danish into selling the island to them at the end of the last war. Without Iceland it would be a challenge to take the war to the limeys.
The problem was would there be enough light left for an attack. Losses for the US had been light so far. So far only the Lake Champlain had been lost. Her crew was abandoning ship right now as they couldn’t get the fire under control and had just spread too far too fast to save the ship. Besides the Lake Champlain the losses to Armbruster’s task force stood at 79 aircraft between the strike and CAP missions. British aircraft losses seem to be high as their fighter seemed to be worth as much as a hooker on Gottingen Street in Halifax. Armbruster thought for a moment, nope a whore from Gottingen Street would be more valuable than those POS British fighters.
“Skip what kind of lighting are we looking at if we launch in the next hour?”
Commander Tenney on Admiral Armbruster’s staff looked up, “Sir, if we launch within the next hour, the lotter time would be low, maybe 20 minutes before twilight hits. But it will be dark when they get back to our flat tops.”
No one as far as Armbruster knew had trained in night time carrier operations. But he wanted to finish this, “Launch as soon as possible. We are going to kick them when they are down and take Iceland back from them.”
[1] The Germans have a few old but large submarines that have been modified for submarine transport use. They kept those in the reserves through. Primary built for transporting raw natural rubber into Germany.
North Atlantic
February 7 1939
Vice Admiral Armbruster was reviewing the debriefs from the squadrons that had returned from the strike on the British. The reports were they left four British carriers burning. That was an impressive strike but he wanted to remove all five carriers today so he could move to striking the limey invasion fleet. Because from the reports the Marines and Icelander Territorial Guard was getting their ass handed to them by the British. He also knew that a massive convoy was forming up at Halifax to relieve the those forces on Iceland that were fighting for their life. However Admiral Johnson had made it clear no surface ships were to enter the Denmark Straits unless they have cleared the road. Armbruster wanted to on the road.
Further with reports that have been growing over the last few days of the British invading the Faroe Islands, Armbruster understood America must have control of Iceland. With the British in control of both Iceland and the Faroe Islands it would make it just about impossible even to reach their allies in Europe even via transport submarine[1]. Iceland was the all critical forward operating base designed to strike the British over the head with a sledgehammer. It was why the US basically forced the Danish into selling the island to them at the end of the last war. Without Iceland it would be a challenge to take the war to the limeys.
The problem was would there be enough light left for an attack. Losses for the US had been light so far. So far only the Lake Champlain had been lost. Her crew was abandoning ship right now as they couldn’t get the fire under control and had just spread too far too fast to save the ship. Besides the Lake Champlain the losses to Armbruster’s task force stood at 79 aircraft between the strike and CAP missions. British aircraft losses seem to be high as their fighter seemed to be worth as much as a hooker on Gottingen Street in Halifax. Armbruster thought for a moment, nope a whore from Gottingen Street would be more valuable than those POS British fighters.
“Skip what kind of lighting are we looking at if we launch in the next hour?”
Commander Tenney on Admiral Armbruster’s staff looked up, “Sir, if we launch within the next hour, the lotter time would be low, maybe 20 minutes before twilight hits. But it will be dark when they get back to our flat tops.”
No one as far as Armbruster knew had trained in night time carrier operations. But he wanted to finish this, “Launch as soon as possible. We are going to kick them when they are down and take Iceland back from them.”
[1] The Germans have a few old but large submarines that have been modified for submarine transport use. They kept those in the reserves through. Primary built for transporting raw natural rubber into Germany.