A Dutch Germany

[Friedrich der Große]

What if in an alternate timeline, the Netherlands got not only Belgium and Luxembourg in 1815 during the Congress of Vienna, but the Rhineland too.

ATTENTION:
I am not asking for a discussion about ‘they would never get the Rhineland’ or something like that. I am only asking for: WHAT IF the Rhineland became Dutch. Because for my Alternate History of the Netherlands scenario, I want to see ALL possible PODs.

My questions
So, what would have happened if the Netherlands got the Rhineland in 1815. What would have happened with this ‘Dutch Germany.’ And what would have happened with the German Unification, Belgian Revolution and other events after 1815?

 

[Nivek]

What if in an alternate timeline, the Netherlands got not only Belgium and Luxembourg in 1815 during the Congress of Vienna, but the Rhineland too.

ATTENTION:
I am not asking for a discussion about ‘they would never get the Rhineland’ or something like that. I am only asking for: WHAT IF the Rhineland became Dutch. Because for my Alternate History of the Netherlands scenario, I want to see ALL possible PODs.

My questions
So, what would have happened if the Netherlands got the Rhineland in 1815. What would have happened with this ‘Dutch Germany.’ And what would have happened with the German Unification, Belgian Revolution and other events after 1815?

What prussia gets instead? Saxony?

 

[Virginia Liberal]

The Dutch are gonna be first on Prussia's hit list in TTL I don't know the Dutch could rally enough of the German states to create their own Germany but they could really play spoiler for the Prussian in their attempt to unify Germany. I'm not sure how the 2nd French Empire would feel about a mega Netherlands sitting on the east bank of the Rhine.

 

[Atterdag]

There’s a Rhenish revolution simultaneously as the Belgian one, this one getting Austrian/Prussian support rather than French. A Rhenish state is established which becomes a dual protectorate of Austria and Prussia, and a potential reason for an atl Austria-Prussian war.

 

[Nivek]

The Dutch are gonna be first on Prussia's hit list in TTL I don't know the Dutch could rally enough of the German states to create their own Germany but they could really play spoiler for the Prussian in their attempt to unify Germany. I'm not sure how the 2nd French Empire would feel about a mega Netherlands sitting on the east bank of the Rhine.

Or with the dutch being in germany, they can work as the honest broker between Austria and prussia, Grossdeutchland losing could become a possibility with those 3 sharing power(rotative emperor and the others two as arch-kings?) @Jared showed it could be possible.

There’s a Rhenish revolution simultaneously as the Belgian one, this one getting Austrian/Prussian support rather than French. A Rhenish state is established which becomes a dual protectorate of Austria and Prussia, and a potential reason for an atl Austria-Prussian war.

If anything Austria and Prussia would crush it under their confederal committee the same the belgian one too

 

[Friedrich der Große]

What prussia gets instead? Saxony?

Yes

 

[Nivek]

Yes

And the Wettins? nothing or a new kingdom?

 

[Friedrich der Große]

And the Wettins? nothing or a new kingdom?

Yes

 

[DUWANG]

Yes

So yes they have nothing or yes they have a new kingdom?

 

[Friedrich der Große]

So yes they have nothing or yes they have a new kingdom?

They have nothing

 

[Clandango]

Does which part of the Rhineland? They get basically all the French parts (besides in the north) that were not included in the Confederation of the Rhine? What about the Duchies of Berg, Nassau, etc? They have linguistic ties with Berg and dynastic ties with Nassau. Would we go the route of everything not officially being one country? I think the situation with Luxembourg was that it was considered German, but- Hmmm, looking it up it seems both Prussia and the Netherlands claimed Luxembourg, (much like their leaders claimed the title Prince of Orange), but having it officially separate, and with the Prussians lodged in the fortress they got to a compromise. There was a lot of compromising in that period, helped by the lands of small states, churches, and independent cities being shuffled around. It seems that they also changed their title from Orange to Oranje for the benefit of the French, as it implied no longer claiming the Principality of Orange, Which used to be down near Avignon. Might be there is no need for it here.

Now, how about we try having the Wettins be given the Rhineland, on both sides of the river, with the Prussians snagging their valuable land, and try having them marry into the family of the Duke of Nassau. Maybe find a way to dovetail them together or get some basic alliance going as they would be neighbors in multiple areas. Going to be problems either way, if the Dutch ever get a Queen, as it means anything officially a part of the German Confederation or its equivalent would go to a man instead. Not that the Dutch would necessarily mind, so long as they are still closely tied economically, which they presumably would be through their ports. Anyone know where to find maps showing the old distribution of dialects through the Germanies?

 

[Parma]

I understood the future king William I of the Netherlands, had a few maps with whishes and desires of his future realm. These maps included roughly the western side of future Prussian Rhineland. It were roughly Cleve, Gullick and Coln. Since it colided with Prusian desired Rhine land it never materialised.
My best gues is that the Prussians and Russians make a deal over Saxony and Galicia, whihc will infuriate Metternich of Austria who as a sort of punishment to Prussia will grant all Prussian desires of land around the Rhine to the new Kingdom of the Nehterlands.
It seams that Metternich and Tsar Alexnader had the same mistress at the Congress of Vienna. And Allexander promissed one of his daugters to the son of futer KIng Willima I of the Netherlands.
Never under estimate personalities and personal ties.

 

[Parma]

If the new kingdom of the Netherlands comprised as well the Rhineland it would even be more unlikely the Belgian revolt ended with and independent Belgium.
The former counties, Cleve, Gulick, Upper Gelre and part of Coln had , as a matter of speaking, a closer cultural connection with Amsterdam than with Berlin.
So I do not sea much issues, the only one will be that most of the Rhine land will be Catholic, whihc could be as well a reason for a not succes full Belgian revolt.
A Kingdom of the Netherlands with Belgium and Rhineland will develop during the 19th century very fast in one, if not largest industrial ppower houses of the European continent. With this it would be doubtfull if Prussia will get the upperhand in a possible German unification process or this process will never amterialise

 

[Friedrich der Große]

If the new kingdom of the Netherlands comprised as well the Rhineland it would even be more unlikely the Belgian revolt ended with and independent Belgium.
The former counties, Cleve, Gulick, Upper Gelre and part of Coln had , as a matter of speaking, a closer cultural connection with Amsterdam than with Berlin.
So I do not sea much issues, the only one will be that most of the Rhine land will be Catholic, whihc could be as well a reason for a not succes full Belgian revolt.
A Kingdom of the Netherlands with Belgium and Rhineland will develop during the 19th century very fast in one, if not largest industrial ppower houses of the European continent. With this it would be doubtfull if Prussia will get the upperhand in a possible German unification process or this process will never amterialise

Personally, I think the German Unification will still happen, in a similar way as in our timeline. The Netherlands was and is a trade country, with focus on its overseas empire. Off course, they would be more in European politics than in OTL, but I doubt they would join the ‘Battle of the German Unification’, I think they would stay neutral in it.

Thoughts?

 

[Friedrich der Große]

If the new kingdom of the Netherlands comprised as well the Rhineland it would even be more unlikely the Belgian revolt ended with and independent Belgium.
The former counties, Cleve, Gulick, Upper Gelre and part of Coln had , as a matter of speaking, a closer cultural connection with Amsterdam than with Berlin.
So I do not sea much issues, the only one will be that most of the Rhine land will be Catholic, whihc could be as well a reason for a not succes full Belgian revolt.
A Kingdom of the Netherlands with Belgium and Rhineland will develop during the 19th century very fast in one, if not largest industrial ppower houses of the European continent. With this it would be doubtfull if Prussia will get the upperhand in a possible German unification process or this process will never amterialise

But wouldn’t there be a German-speaking elite in the Rhineland which organise a revolution, in the same way as the French-speaking Belgian elite did?

I agree the differences between the Dutch and the Rhinelanders are not really big.

 

[Friedrich der Große]

I understood the future king William I of the Netherlands, had a few maps with whishes and desires of his future realm. These maps included roughly the western side of future Prussian Rhineland. It were roughly Cleve, Gullick and Coln. Since it colided with Prusian desired Rhine land it never materialised.
My best gues is that the Prussians and Russians make a deal over Saxony and Galicia, whihc will infuriate Metternich of Austria who as a sort of punishment to Prussia will grant all Prussian desires of land around the Rhine to the new Kingdom of the Nehterlands.
It seams that Metternich and Tsar Alexnader had the same mistress at the Congress of Vienna. And Allexander promissed one of his daugters to the son of futer KIng Willima I of the Netherlands.
Never under estimate personalities and personal ties.

This area is what William I wanted, to the Moezel and the Rhine:

 

[Nivek]

This area is what William I wanted, to the Moezel and the Rhine:

View attachment 678314

And in decades of darknes did happened.

 

[Parma]

But wouldn’t there be a German-speaking elite in the Rhineland which organise a revolution, in the same way as the French-speaking Belgian elite did?

I agree the differences between the Dutch and the Rhinelanders are not really big.

No. first the cultural differences were not that large with the exception that the majority was Catholic or Lutheran.
Second the Beglian revolt was not a revolt, in a sence of a broad movement and desire of independence. It was nearly a conspiracy of a small group of ratashist who's aim was to connect the former Southern Netherlands with France. Most of them originated from France. During this revolt and right after independence these ratashist were blocked in their persuit of connecting with France. The only places which revolted or were riots occured were Liege, Verviers and Brussels. In flanders there was no unrest at all.
The Belgian revolt was succesfull as well due to the weak response of the authorities, in matter of fact the Civic gurad who tried to restore order in Brussels was left alone when the Army retreated.

 

[AsukaEMP]

No. first the cultural differences were not that large with the exception that the majority was Catholic or Lutheran.

So just like Belgium?

Most of them originated from France.

No they didn't, and Charles Rogier had lived the vast majority of his life in Belgium. Lists with members of the Provisional Government and the Members first congress are freely available online and literally everyone else in the Provisional Government was born in what's now Belgium. The only exception besides Charles Rogier was Felix de Merode who was born in Maastricht, the Netherlands, instead.

In flanders there was no unrest at all.

Not only is this completely false, but the unrest even spread into the rest of Netherlands. The Dutch had to send troops to keep the Catholic parts of what's now still the Netherlands in check as well. Also Brussels was majority Brabantian-speaking at the time, so Dutch not French. That switch didn't fully happen until more than a century later.

 

[Parma]

So just like Belgium?


Not only is this completely false, but the unrest even spread into the rest of Netherlands. The Dutch had to send troops to keep the Catholic parts of what's now still the Netherlands in check as well. Also Brussels was majority Brabantian-speaking at the time, so Dutch not French. That switch didn't fully happen until more than a century later.

Interesting to know, I only read of armed bands in Liege, Verviers and Brussels, not in large industrial cities in Flanders like Gent, Aalst, Maastricht or Antwerp.
I know the revolt was acombination of true revolutionairs agiant the oppressing, dictatorial, ruling of King William I, but as well was a riot of the low class who was affected by the economic situation.
As I understand during the 19th century, the official language of Belgium was France. At least it was not encorage to use Dutch or evenpossible to use Dutch in official government documents. I know from personel account that Dutch, or Brabantian, was beaten out of the children of Brussels at the first half of the 20th century, but even before that it was not a language to be used in official documents.

No they didn't, and Charles Rogier had lived the vast majority of his life in Belgium. Lists with members of the Provisional Government and the Members first congress are freely available online and literally everyone else in the Provisional Government was born in what's now Belgium. The only exception besides Charles Rogier was Felix de Merode who was born in Maastricht, the Netherlands, instead.

I had the impresssion that Rogier and Merode had initial intentions to connect with France than pursue an indepentend state.