A Confederate Question.

Nietzsche

Banned
This thread is not about how the Confeds could've won or lost the war, so those who want to rant about that, go somewhere else.



What this is about, assuming the Confederacy wins the war with the best-possible terms(which means Maryland, Missouri and Delaware are in along with the Arizona and New Mexico territories), is what their aims would be. What resources outside their borders would they be most likely to want to secure? Strategic areas they'd want to have?
 
The most I could think of is Pacific access, either through the purchase of land, or an agreement with the USA or Mexico to use a port.
 
The most I could think of is Pacific access, either through the purchase of land, or an agreement with the USA or Mexico to use a port.

A CSA that survives the CW is going to be aligned with Britain and/or France. Instead of trying to acquire access overland to the Pacific, they could focus on becoming a regional Gulf or Mexico/Caribbean power while backing and aiding earlier efforts by either the British or French of building an inter-ocean canal, whether it ends up in Panama, Nicaragua, or Tehuantepec. What good does direct territorial access to the Pacific do for the Confederates strategically, besides adding a lot of territory to defend and a bunch of people who aren't exactly racially desirable?
 
To be devil's advocate, LA had pro-Confederate riots.

If this CSA is already wanked in all events (maybe even KY/WV/south MO, even?), would it kill Britain and France to force the USA to hand over SoCal?
 
A CSA that survives the CW is going to be aligned with Britain and/or France. Instead of trying to acquire access overland to the Pacific, they could focus on becoming a regional Gulf or Mexico/Caribbean power while backing and aiding earlier efforts by either the British or French of building an inter-ocean canal, whether it ends up in Panama, Nicaragua, or Tehuantepec. What good does direct territorial access to the Pacific do for the Confederates strategically, besides adding a lot of territory to defend and a bunch of people who aren't exactly racially desirable?

See, I consider this all "within its borders" and so didn't consider it as answering the OP's question. The question seemed to be more about expansion than anything else.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
To be devil's advocate, LA had pro-Confederate riots.

If this CSA is already wanked in all events (maybe even KY/WV/south MO, even?), would it kill Britain and France to force the USA to hand over SoCal?
If I didn't make it clear enough, this CSA already has Maryland, Kentucky, all of Virginia, and all of Missouri.

This is more or less 'Maximum Confederate Expansion' during the Civil War

The purpose of this question is what they do afterwards, as the South is sorely lacking in quite a few areas in regards to resources.
 
This thread is not about how the Confeds could've won or lost the war, so those who want to rant about that, go somewhere else.



What this is about, assuming the Confederacy wins the war with the best-possible terms(which means Maryland, Missouri and Delaware are in along with the Arizona and New Mexico territories), is what their aims would be. What resources outside their borders would they be most likely to want to secure? Strategic areas they'd want to have?
i'd say, if nothing else, the CSA could/would try to buy a corridor to the Sea of Cortez so they have a Pacific port (more plausible, imo, than them buy Sonora and Chihuahua

aside from that--and its been said several times before--the CSA would probably become a banana republic and either come back to the Union begging for forgiveness or else try to ignore their anti-Union history and trade with the USA. to give some OTL precedent, shortly after the ARW ended, Britain began trading with the former colonies because they still needed resources from the new USA. the CSA was big pretty much only on cash crops, so they'd need to abandon their precious cotton and tobacco and move on to actual foodstuffs. this is where their banana republic status would come in: if they don't do that, they'd be dependent on export, and potential raids by their own rebels or Unionists would cripple their economy.
 
If you're talking about your Victoria game, I'd advocate landgrabs in the direction of the USA, towards the end of seizing territories in the west. As they will be lightly populated as of right now, you can easily Dixie-colonize them, and use them eventually to even the balance with the US.

Colonies in Africa will be a poison pill and a resource drain, European nations had a hard time using them, and you're on the other side of the globe.

Eventually, your goal should be to be totally dominant in the Americas, having sphered or conquered as much of North and South America as possible.
 
Well based on this site, I would say that they would likely be interested in the northern tier of Mexican states (which are also some of Mexico's main cotton producing states in addition to providing access to the Pacific) along with Cuba (interest in Cuba had been a longstanding thing in the United States and there was definite Southern interest before the war since Cuba was a slave-owning colony and it's addition would increase the number of slave states). And with slavery not being completely abolished in Cuba until 1884/1886, then there is still a fair amount of time during which Confederate-Spanish relations would probably deteriorate over any Spanish consideration of abolition in Cuba (perhaps sparking the conflict in which the CSA manages to take Cuba and Puerto Rico?). I also suspect they would have an interest in Puerto Rico as well (slave owning until 1873-1876).

For different reasons the CSA would probably have an interest in Haiti. There would probably be no recognition of course and there might be periodic small scale conflict/action occurring in Haiti as a result of bad relations boiling over (perhaps after some slave revolt is put down the CSA sends a warship to bombard Port-au-Prince in retribution for any suspected or proven Haitian support...maybe we even see a brief occupation or two of Haiti).

As others have said, the CSA would probably also be interested in a canal across Central America. So it may have an interest in securing some form of control or influence in Central America and the Caribbean (so perhaps in Samana peninsula in the Dominican Republic and in the straits between Puerto Rico and the Danish West Indies/Danish Virgin Islands). I don't generally subscribe to the idea that the CSA will be aligned to Britain and France (well maybe France but I doubt it). Britain had been very active in trying to end the slave trade and slavery for almost 60 years before the CSA came into being, and still went about signing treaties to this effect even after the CSA was extinguished in OTL in 1865. Plus there is the fact as British interest in Egypt grows for strategic reasons then eventually the British (and more specifically the British merchants and administrators in Egypt and India) are not going to look favourably on the competition from slave produced cotton with cotton produced in British controlled areas like India and Egypt. Any Confederate interest in the Caribbean and Central America (which would be extremely likely) is also likely to be viewed as a threat or in terms of rivalry by the British and they may attempt to play the US and CS off against each other in order to secure for themselves the best possible situation in Central America and the Caribbean (for instance US recognition of some kind of right for Britain to protect the autonomy of the Mosquito Coast now that it has been transferred to Nicaragua in 1860).

So perhaps the CSA would attempt to exercise influence in Honduras, the Danish West Indies, the Dominican Republic and in Colombia's province of Panama. Farther afield I could see the CSA attempting to persuade Brazil not to end slavery and trying to engender good relations with that country.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
If you're talking about your Victoria game, I'd advocate landgrabs in the direction of the USA, towards the end of seizing territories in the west. As they will be lightly populated as of right now, you can easily Dixie-colonize them, and use them eventually to even the balance with the US.

Colonies in Africa will be a poison pill and a resource drain, European nations had a hard time using them, and you're on the other side of the globe.

Eventually, your goal should be to be totally dominant in the Americas, having sphered or conquered as much of North and South America as possible.

It's inspired by my Vicky2 game yes. But I like to role-play a little with countries. Conquering the planet is only so much fun. Which is why I'm asking what sort of long-term goals the Confederates might find interest in.
 
It's inspired by my Vicky2 game yes. But I like to role-play a little with countries. Conquering the planet is only so much fun. Which is why I'm asking what sort of long-term goals the Confederates might find interest in.

Outside of territory, I think one of their long term goals would be free trade.

If I'm not mistaken there was a provision for it in their constitution and slave produced goods would probably be very competitive with non-slave produced goods anyway so it would be to the CSA's interest to promote free trade globally (but this would be counteracted by other countries not wishing to compete with the CSA's slave labour force).
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Outside of territory, I think one of their long term goals would be free trade.

If I'm not mistaken there was a provision for it in their constitution and slave produced goods would probably be very competitive with non-slave produced goods anyway so it would be to the CSA's interest to promote free trade globally (but this would be counteracted by other countries not wishing to compete with the CSA's slave labour force).
True, true. What of relations with Brazil? Think we could see a 'Slave Bloc' form?
 
True, true. What of relations with Brazil? Think we could see a 'Slave Bloc' form?

Well that's what I speculated on in the first reply. Perhaps relations would be good with certain segments of Brazilian society and with some in Brazil's government. However the CSA faces a number of problems in forming any kind of long lasting slave bloc with Brazil:

- Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (who began his reign in 1831) was an abolitionist (although in the late 1860s and in the 1870s he faced a fair amount of resistance to his abolitionist stance)

- By the 1880s slavery was apparently in decline in the north of Brazil (where it was strongest up until that point) as the region attracted more European immigrants (and thus more free labour).

- Britain was very keen on ending slavery in Brazil in order to ensure that the sugar produced via slavery in Brazil did not out-compete with the sugar produced via free (and indentured) labour in the British West Indies

- By the 1880s slaves declined as a percentage of the population (from 29% in 1823 to less than 5% in 1887) not only because of new European immigrants but because of the lack of new slaves with the end of the slave trade in 1850.

- The north and northeast had been weakened in various revolts in the 1830s-1840s and were probably unlikely to pull a "CSA" on the Empire of Brazil and successfully secede.

But maybe the CSA might get lucky and encourage the overthrow of Pedro II (perhaps establishing an earlier republic?) which could result in a fairly friendly Brazil from the 1860s to 1880s after which Brazil might still be fairly friendly even if it abandons slavery as uneconomical by the late 1880s to early 1890s.

EDIT: Actually, perhaps slavery in Brazil might last a bit longer than it did in OTL if Pedro II's efforts in 1867 onwards fail. After all the slave population definitely declined as a result of his getting a law passed in 1867 or thereabouts which freed all children born into slavery. So it basically freed the future generation of slaves and ensured that only the adult slaves would remain in slavery for the foreseeable future. Even without any other changes it would have meant that the slave population would have dropped to zero within maybe 60 years (less considering he also got a law passed in the 1870s which freed all slaves over the age of 60).

So since we are already discussing a CSA uber-wank (with Kentucky, New Mexico Territory, Missouri, West(ern) Virginia, Maryland (!) and even Delware (!!!) in the mix) we may as well presume other things go right for them. So they manage to influence (pay off) enough people in the Brazilian government that the law freeing child slaves doesn't get passed. Then in the 1870s after more attempts to free the slaves, Pedro II is overthrown and a republic is declared.

From here we get the interesting (and scary) prospect of a CSA-Brazilian alliance of sorts (though alliance is probably too strong a term). Any half-decent relations with Britain are now gone as the British now see a slave bloc straddling their West Indian holdings AND competing with their West Indian sugar, Egyptian cotton and Indian cotton. France may come to some sort of "accommodation" with the CSA so that it can continue to prop up its puppet in Mexico. Anglo-French relations are probably strained until Nappy the Third is overthrown himself as a result of a habit of over-reaching himself and getting burned as a result(in Mexico, Luxembourg and Franco-Prussian War, etc). Maybe it won't be 1870, but probably before 1880 France will become a republic again and abandon the Mexican adventure and the CSA and have good relations with the UK again.

After 1880 though things would start to get dicey for any slave bloc - in Brazil, immigrant labour would probably still begin to outcompete slave labour but due to the higher proportion of the population being slaves it won't be the same as in OTL and there would be less economic pressure to abandon slavery. In the CSA, things will begin to tank in around 1910-1920 with the Boll Weevil making its way through the cotton crop. This might cause widespread slavery in the CSA to become uneconomical (note i said widespread slavery, not slavery in total). There would probably be more slaves than are needed and slave prices could well collapse (ruining many of the slave owners since a lot of their "property" is now worthless or cheap). Some may abandon slavery for other ventures, others may move out of cotton farming and into other lines of work such as mining (and slaves can be used for industrial labour) and others would move into different kinds of crops. Perhaps we see scattered incidents of some cotton farms just being abandoned and the slaves becoming de facto free or de jure free. We might also see some Confederates attempting to make a new life in the only other place on earth where they could engage in farming with slaves: Brazil. This would be interesting as if they attempted to move to Brazil with their slaves they would essentially be transporting slaves on the high seas. But they might not be in violation of the (by then nearly universal) slave trade bans (which were in effect for the CSA and Brazil too by the 1860s) since they would technically be transporting people who had just been enslaved for the purpose of selling them. These would be slaves that they already owned and which they were carry with them not to sell (at least not initially) but to continue using. Plus they would be transporting them on Confederate flagged ships (which would essentially observe CSA law). I could well imagine a major diplomatic incident or two developing as some Confederate farmer attempted to go to Brazil with his slaves to start afresh only to be interdicted by the Royal Navy in the Caribbean.....It probably won't develop into a major war though as the issue would probably be settled legally with the practice either being considered as slave trading or not (and if not the British might then institute laws to cover this perceived loophole and pressure other countries to sign on to treaties closing this loophole as well).

Back in the USA there would probably be an increased drive to re-settle free blacks in Liberia and Haiti as the blacks would probably be increasingly blamed for splitting the nation in two. Ironically in the 1910s-1920s the CSA might also see a small scale effort to re-settle abandoned and freed slaves (the excess slaves after the Boll Weevil effect), but probably in Liberia rather than Haiti (the thinking would probably go that the farther away tjeu were resettled from the CSA, the better).
 
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As I love to point out, the CSA would be far too worried trying to hold onto what it held OTL, let alone entertaining more than day dreams of expansion. Base case scenario, they disolve and the individual bits come groveling back to the USA for re-admission. Worst case, it's a backward, broken proto-banana republic with the slaves and poor whites poth on the verge of constant revolt, with a USA in the midst of jingoism staring hungrily across the border, ready to pounce at the first moment of weakness.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Well that's what I speculated on in the first reply. Perhaps relations would be good with certain segments of Brazilian society and with some in Brazil's government. However the CSA faces a number of problems in forming any kind of long lasting slave bloc with Brazil:

- Emperor Pedro II of Brazil (who began his reign in 1831) was an abolitionist (although in the late 1860s and in the 1870s he faced a fair amount of resistance to his abolitionist stance)

- By the 1880s slavery was apparently in decline in the north of Brazil (where it was strongest up until that point) as the region attracted more European immigrants (and thus more free labour).

- Britain was very keen on ending slavery in Brazil in order to ensure that the sugar produced via slavery in Brazil did not out-compete with the sugar produced via free (and indentured) labour in the British West Indies
Hmmmm. Quite intresting

- By the 1880s slaves declined as a percentage of the population (from 29% in 1823 to less than 5% in 1887) not only because of new European immigrants but because of the lack of new slaves with the end of the slave trade in 1850.

- The north and northeast had been weakened in various revolts in the 1830s-1840s and were probably unlikely to pull a "CSA" on the Empire of Brazil and successfully secede.

But maybe the CSA might get lucky and encourage the overthrow of Pedro II (perhaps establishing an earlier republic?) which could result in a fairly friendly Brazil from the 1860s to 1880s after which Brazil might still be fairly friendly even if it abandons slavery as uneconomical by the late 1880s to early 1890s.
Then we shall christen the new Brazilian Republic, heh. The way it is now, Brazil only maintains Secondary Power status because of massive Confederate investment.
EDIT: Actually, perhaps slavery in Brazil might last a bit longer than it did in OTL if Pedro II's efforts in 1867 onwards fail. After all the slave population definitely declined as a result of his getting a law passed in 1867 or thereabouts which freed all children born into slavery. So it basically freed the future generation of slaves and ensured that only the adult slaves would remain in slavery for the foreseeable future. Even without any other changes it would have meant that the slave population would have dropped to zero within maybe 60 years (less considering he also got a law passed in the 1870s which freed all slaves over the age of 60).

So since we are already discussing a CSA uber-wank (with Kentucky, New Mexico Territory, Missouri, West(ern) Virginia, Maryland (!) and even Delware (!!!) in the mix) we may as well presume other things go right for them. So they manage to influence (pay off) enough people in the Brazilian government that the law freeing child slaves doesn't get passed. Then in the 1870s after more attempts to free the slaves, Pedro II is overthrown and a republic is declared.
What are some measures that could be taken to halt, or atleast slow, the decrease in slave populations? Oh, and, do you think if they(CSA/Brazil) changed the terminology to 'indentured servants' that Britain would look the other way?

From here we get the interesting (and scary) prospect of a CSA-Brazilian alliance of sorts (though alliance is probably too strong a term). Any half-decent relations with Britain are now gone as the British now see a slave bloc straddling their West Indian holdings AND competing with their West Indian sugar, Egyptian cotton and Indian cotton. France may come to some sort of "accommodation" with the CSA so that it can continue to prop up its puppet in Mexico. Anglo-French relations are probably strained until Nappy the Third is overthrown himself as a result of a habit of over-reaching himself and getting burned as a result(in Mexico, Luxembourg and Franco-Prussian War, etc). Maybe it won't be 1870, but probably before 1880 France will become a republic again and abandon the Mexican adventure and the CSA and have good relations with the UK again.
France is alreay firmly in the Unionbloc.
After 1880 though things would start to get dicey for any slave bloc - in Brazil, immigrant labour would probably still begin to outcompete slave labour but due to the higher proportion of the population being slaves it won't be the same as in OTL and there would be less economic pressure to abandon slavery. In the CSA, things will begin to tank in around 1910-1920 with the Boll Weevil making its way through the cotton crop. This might cause widespread slavery in the CSA to become uneconomical (note i said widespread slavery, not slavery in total). There would probably be more slaves than are needed and slave prices could well collapse (ruining many of the slave owners since a lot of their "property" is now worthless or cheap). Some may abandon slavery for other ventures, others may move out of cotton farming and into other lines of work such as mining (and slaves can be used for industrial labour) and others would move into different kinds of crops. Perhaps we see scattered incidents of some cotton farms just being abandoned and the slaves becoming de facto free or de jure free. We might also see some Confederates attempting to make a new life in the only other place on earth where they could engage in farming with slaves: Brazil. This would be interesting as if they attempted to move to Brazil with their slaves they would essentially be transporting slaves on the high seas. But they might not be in violation of the (by then nearly universal) slave trade bans (which were in effect for the CSA and Brazil too by the 1860s) since they would technically be transporting people who had just been enslaved for the purpose of selling them. These would be slaves that they already owned and which they were carry with them not to sell (at least not initially) but to continue using. Plus they would be transporting them on Confederate flagged ships (which would essentially observe CSA law). I could well imagine a major diplomatic incident or two developing as some Confederate farmer attempted to go to Brazil with his slaves to start afresh only to be interdicted by the Royal Navy in the Caribbean.....It probably won't develop into a major war though as the issue would probably be settled legally with the practice either being considered as slave trading or not (and if not the British might then institute laws to cover this perceived loophole and pressure other countries to sign on to treaties closing this loophole as well).

Back in the USA there would probably be an increased drive to re-settle free blacks in Liberia and Haiti as the blacks would probably be increasingly blamed for splitting the nation in two. Ironically in the 1910s-1920s the CSA might also see a small scale effort to re-settle abandoned and freed slaves (the excess slaves after the Boll Weevil effect), but probably in Liberia rather than Haiti (the thinking would probably go that the farther away tjeu were resettled from the CSA, the better).

Hmmm. Why not just grab a (useful) piece of Africa and make a "Black Nation" out of it? You know, to feed the CSA with cheap, cheap rubber and the like.
 
What this is about, assuming the Confederacy wins the war with the best-possible terms(which means Maryland, Missouri and Delaware are in along with the Arizona and New Mexico territories)

Best possible terms, which would require amazing feats of logistics and combat far beyond anything the achieved in OTL would not include Maryland or Delaware and at best a partition of Missouri and the Arizona Territory. Frankly, not losing most or all of Tennessee and Arkansas is going to require amazing success on the Confederacy's part.

What resources outside their borders would they be most likely to want to secure? Strategic areas they'd want to have?

The Confederacy did not think in terms securing resources. They want a Pacific coast to build a transcontinental railroad that they won't spend public funds on. They want the northern tier of Mexican states for more room to grow cotton when their current soils are exhausted. They tried diplomacy during the ACW, failing abjectly, and would probably learn nothing from France's lesson on invading Mexico. And they'd wanted Cuba for decades, even though Spain would vastly outclass the Confederate Navy.
 
There's plenty of discussion on land grabs, and territorial expansion.
But I'd think that priority wise, they'd be far better off working on building relations east: to Europe. They're going to be entirely dependent on them for a vast range of industrial goods, and yet maintenance of such good relations will be difficult (to say the least) given their endorsement of the "peculiar institution".
Territorial expansion is good and all, but first and foremost will be simple survival. And with relations with the industrial US strained (at best), that's going to mean having to bend over backwards for someone else. And the only someone-else on the block is Europe.

Also, why the CSA obsession with access to the Pacific? What good does it do them? "Yea! Now we can send boats out into the big blue"... So... Now what?


Then again, this may just be my naivety speaking...
 

frlmerrin

Banned
It all rather depends on:

a) How this Confederacy came about.
b) Is California independent or part of the USA
c) Has France succeeded in Mexico
d) What British and French foreign policy to the CSA and USA are
e) What the economies are like in the CSA, USA and to a lesser extent Mexico, BNA and if independent California

Different answers to the above give rise to very different answers to the OP's question.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Best possible terms, which would require amazing feats of logistics and combat far beyond anything the achieved in OTL would not include Maryland or Delaware and at best a partition of Missouri and the Arizona Territory. Frankly, not losing most or all of Tennessee and Arkansas is going to require amazing success on the Confederacy's part.
This is specifically why I mentioned in the first post that this is not a discussion on how to get those areas, but what they(the CSA) does after the fact.


The Confederacy did not think in terms securing resources. They want a Pacific coast to build a transcontinental railroad that they won't spend public funds on. They want the northern tier of Mexican states for more room to grow cotton when their current soils are exhausted. They tried diplomacy during the ACW, failing abjectly, and would probably learn nothing from France's lesson on invading Mexico. And they'd wanted Cuba for decades, even though Spain would vastly outclass the Confederate Navy.
Much better, thank you.

There's plenty of discussion on land grabs, and territorial expansion.
But I'd think that priority wise, they'd be far better off working on building relations east: to Europe. They're going to be entirely dependent on them for a vast range of industrial goods, and yet maintenance of such good relations will be difficult (to say the least) given their endorsement of the "peculiar institution".
Territorial expansion is good and all, but first and foremost will be simple survival. And with relations with the industrial US strained (at best), that's going to mean having to bend over backwards for someone else. And the only someone-else on the block is Europe.

Also, why the CSA obsession with access to the Pacific? What good does it do them? "Yea! Now we can send boats out into the big blue"... So... Now what?


Then again, this may just be my naivety speaking...
I mentioned earlier in a post as to how Britain specifically might react or otherwise look over the 'peculiar institution' if it were renamed indentured servitude.

It all rather depends on:

a) How this Confederacy came about.
b) Is California independent or part of the USA
c) Has France succeeded in Mexico
d) What British and French foreign policy to the CSA and USA are
e) What the economies are like in the CSA, USA and to a lesser extent Mexico, BNA and if independent California

Different answers to the above give rise to very different answers to the OP's question.
A) Civil war. Massive gains. Moving on.
B) California independent, protected by Anglo-Confederate arms and is in fact a Confederate puppet.
C) Confederacy kicked France out of Mexico, as France was firmly in the Union Camp.
D) British-Confederate relations are excellent, however the CSA has earned France's eternal scorn.
E)

Confederacy- Cotton production has been increasing steadily since the war, and with puppets stretching from California to Argentina, most resources are fairly easy to come by. Industrial growth has been steady, but quite slow.

Union- Industry growing much faster here, however it is plagued with revolts of one kind or another.

Britain- mostly OTL, I suppose. Has been able to get its hands on some of Californian gold, though.

France- Arms locked with the Union, German unification happened three years earlier.
 
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