A Blunted Sickle
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Thanks chaps.
This could be an illustrative example of the use of armoured cars as occupation forces, in an update!
I think it's important not to underestimate how much the British and French governments felt personally betrayed by Germany after the occupation of rump Czechoslovakia. After then, they essentially wrote Germany off as a state that it was possible to negotiate at all.
There is essentially no treaty that the Germans can make with the western powers at this point that will be accepted, as the latter simply don't believe that anything that the former says has any meaning. They view the Germans as fundamentally dishonest. Note it is not the Nazis that they don't see as possible negotiating partners, but Germany itself.
I think they're going to go for unconditional surrender, simply because of that. They won't even consider any German offer, because they consider whatever they say to be empty positioning for the next betrayal.
There is essentially no treaty that the Germans can make with the western powers at this point that will be accepted, as the latter simply don't believe that anything that the former says has any meaning. They view the Germans as fundamentally dishonest. Note it is not the Nazis that they don't see as possible negotiating partners, but Germany itself.
I think they're going to go for unconditional surrender, simply because of that. They won't even consider any German offer, because they consider whatever they say to be empty positioning for the next betrayal.
It was my understanding that virtually everyone on the Allied side realized that demanding an unconditional surrender was a mistake about ten seconds after FDR included it in a speech off the cuff. Now, maybe they would layer so many conditions on the surrender that it would be functionally unconditional, but as late as Jan 43, Churchill and FDR hadn't come up with specific surrender terms that would satisfy them...
-Bil
Thande
Donor
I've just read through this thread over the course of a few days. Here are my thoughts:
This TL illustrates the fact that just because a period of history is thought of as "overdone" or "clichéd" as a setting for AH does not mean you can't tell an original story. This TL really captures the uncertainty of the early days of WW2 and is refreshing change to what can often be a climate of determinism on here as far as WW2 is concerned, that no matter what you do, things will eventually end up looking pretty much like OTL. History is flapping loose here, to use the Discworld phrase: we can compare the German salient in Paris to Stalingrad, but nothing here really resembles anything recognisable from OTL. This isn't a different OTL bit of history transplanted into place like some of Turtledove's works, this is real history, one thing happening after another with no-one sure where it'll end up. Very reminiscent of those day-by-day, blow-by-blow accounts of WW2 you can find.
When you wrote that the German surrender took place at a Paris Metro station I was wondering if it was the one that would be renamed Stalingrad in OTL, but alas not
Besides Stalingrad though the Germans' situation is also somewhat like the British after Dunkirk. Except they have lost many more men and don't have the luxury of being an island.
You have done very well considering this is a period of time in which there are lots of people with detailed expertise about particular areas who can and do argue about it forever, you have defended your decisions and judgements well. If I would make one criticism, though it was interesting reading through such discussions in this thread, the fact that the TL tends to be written in short bite-size bits means that it is a hassle to trawl through the thread to read it: a text only version in the TLs and Scenarios forum would be much appreciated.
To finish I will say that I have just voted for this TL in the Turtledove poll as a worthy winner and I seem to have helped pushed it over the post, as it's currently leading by two votes...
(Oh, and I was very pleased when you used the phrase "Daring Commando Raid™" at one point )
This TL illustrates the fact that just because a period of history is thought of as "overdone" or "clichéd" as a setting for AH does not mean you can't tell an original story. This TL really captures the uncertainty of the early days of WW2 and is refreshing change to what can often be a climate of determinism on here as far as WW2 is concerned, that no matter what you do, things will eventually end up looking pretty much like OTL. History is flapping loose here, to use the Discworld phrase: we can compare the German salient in Paris to Stalingrad, but nothing here really resembles anything recognisable from OTL. This isn't a different OTL bit of history transplanted into place like some of Turtledove's works, this is real history, one thing happening after another with no-one sure where it'll end up. Very reminiscent of those day-by-day, blow-by-blow accounts of WW2 you can find.
When you wrote that the German surrender took place at a Paris Metro station I was wondering if it was the one that would be renamed Stalingrad in OTL, but alas not
Besides Stalingrad though the Germans' situation is also somewhat like the British after Dunkirk. Except they have lost many more men and don't have the luxury of being an island. You have done very well considering this is a period of time in which there are lots of people with detailed expertise about particular areas who can and do argue about it forever, you have defended your decisions and judgements well. If I would make one criticism, though it was interesting reading through such discussions in this thread, the fact that the TL tends to be written in short bite-size bits means that it is a hassle to trawl through the thread to read it: a text only version in the TLs and Scenarios forum would be much appreciated.
To finish I will say that I have just voted for this TL in the Turtledove poll as a worthy winner and I seem to have helped pushed it over the post, as it's currently leading by two votes...
(Oh, and I was very pleased when you used the phrase "Daring Commando Raid™" at one point
)Thanks. I'm still thinking about whether I do a story-only thread or not. This story has turned out massively bigger than I ever thought it would and I still quite haven't decided what to do with it all.
I kind of had to, the AH.com stories were what got me to register on here in the first place!(Oh, and I was very pleased when you used the phrase "Daring Commando Raid™" at one point
Thande
Donor
That's cool to know. Though the Daring Commando Raid™ thing started out as a joke in my "Moonstruck" stories and Bruno (Dr What) put me saying it in a Series episode as a shout-out to that, which other writers continued.
Artaxerxes
Banned
I would encourage you to get it all in one place on your hard drive and publish it via Amazon self publishing, its well worth reading and you get to say your a published author
It's already all in a Word document, since that's the only way I can keep development times, plans and names straight.I would encourage you to get it all in one place on your hard drive and publish it via Amazon self publishing, its well worth reading and you get to say your a published author
It would need a bit of tidying up, maps adding in, photos, etc. though, which I don't have the time to do yet. We also haven't really reached a neat break-point in the story yet, although the liberation of Paris **might** do for one. I could also do with someone who's done that sort of cleaning up before who was willing to advise on what needed doing - right now I'm clueless.
My copy is 154 pages and 71,000 words, although quite a lot of that is in the future still.
I thought the audience were supposed to provide the food? As for the Frisian Islands, there's really nothing you can do with them that you can't do better from Alsace-LorraineWell, you still haven't got around to the Frisian Islands.
Or food.
p.s. What is it about Oxfordshire and the WW2 Turtledoves?
That dreaded name remind me of an infamous thread that shall not be named.Well, you still haven't got around to the Frisian Islands.
Or food.
19th August 1940
Dr Merritt meets with the Armoured Vehicles committee at the War Office to present the available options for development of the A.20 tank. As the discussion continues, a consensus gradually emerges that it isn't really a choice between two design options. Instead, they have two independent tank designs which should be considered separately.
The first design, with the Napier Lion engine and 6lb gun in a 3-man turret is a straightforward Valentine replacement/supplement as an Infantry tank and can be treated as such. With no major technical hurdles, they order a series of prototypes to be built for troop trials in December. This tank is to be known as the Churchill after the 1st Duke of Marlborough.
The second design will take at least a year longer to get into production (probably two) and should really be thought of as a replacement for the first – while the gun is well proven, the turret ring would be the largest ever built for land use in the UK. The consensus on the committee is that enlarging the hull is the least risky way to fit in the turret ring, and it is also pointed out that the vast majority of moves by this tank will be in France where they have a less restrictive railway loading gauge. As such they decide that the cost of building a small number of road transporters to carry the tanks between the factories and the nearest port of embarkation (or even modifying the rail loading gauge over that distance) is a very worthwhile trade-off against the technical risks of trying to fit such a big turret ring on a small tank.
The committee also think that at least some trials should be carried out with the Rootes-Coatalen engine in case there are unexpected benefits to it. On paper it is less promising than the Napier Lion option when considered purely as an engine, but the members can see some benefits of diesel fuel over petrol. As such the tank is to be designed to accept either, which also has the side benefit of ensuring a roomy engine bay for easy maintenance.
This design is to be known as the Black Prince (after Edward of Woodstock, despite misgivings by some that the victor of the Battle of Crécy is not the best namesake to give a tank for service in France!), with a target date for trials of the 1st of August 1941. This is recognised to be somewhat ambitious, and Dr Merritt is told that should trials of a complete vehicle be impractical the committee would still like to see particular subsystems such as the turret tried out individually.
In Germany the interrogations of those detained in the recent wave of arrests continue. While it rapidly becomes clear that the majority haven’t actually broken any laws, the Gestapo are firmly convinced that if unchecked these men would seek to remove the Nazi party from power by any means available. As a result, they start the process of using their powers of Untersuehungshaft to detain a number of those arrested indefinitely. While the majority will end up in Concentration Camps, those with political clout face spending time in a rather more gilded cage.
One of the interrogations is more successful, as at one point Goerdeler inadvertently admits to having spoken to French intelligence before the war. This is enough to get permission for the Gestapo to use coercive interrogation techniques (usually reserved for those without powerful friends) on him over the next few days, in the hope of finding out more about his co-conspirators.
Dr Merritt meets with the Armoured Vehicles committee at the War Office to present the available options for development of the A.20 tank. As the discussion continues, a consensus gradually emerges that it isn't really a choice between two design options. Instead, they have two independent tank designs which should be considered separately.
The first design, with the Napier Lion engine and 6lb gun in a 3-man turret is a straightforward Valentine replacement/supplement as an Infantry tank and can be treated as such. With no major technical hurdles, they order a series of prototypes to be built for troop trials in December. This tank is to be known as the Churchill after the 1st Duke of Marlborough.
The second design will take at least a year longer to get into production (probably two) and should really be thought of as a replacement for the first – while the gun is well proven, the turret ring would be the largest ever built for land use in the UK. The consensus on the committee is that enlarging the hull is the least risky way to fit in the turret ring, and it is also pointed out that the vast majority of moves by this tank will be in France where they have a less restrictive railway loading gauge. As such they decide that the cost of building a small number of road transporters to carry the tanks between the factories and the nearest port of embarkation (or even modifying the rail loading gauge over that distance) is a very worthwhile trade-off against the technical risks of trying to fit such a big turret ring on a small tank.
The committee also think that at least some trials should be carried out with the Rootes-Coatalen engine in case there are unexpected benefits to it. On paper it is less promising than the Napier Lion option when considered purely as an engine, but the members can see some benefits of diesel fuel over petrol. As such the tank is to be designed to accept either, which also has the side benefit of ensuring a roomy engine bay for easy maintenance.
This design is to be known as the Black Prince (after Edward of Woodstock, despite misgivings by some that the victor of the Battle of Crécy is not the best namesake to give a tank for service in France!), with a target date for trials of the 1st of August 1941. This is recognised to be somewhat ambitious, and Dr Merritt is told that should trials of a complete vehicle be impractical the committee would still like to see particular subsystems such as the turret tried out individually.
In Germany the interrogations of those detained in the recent wave of arrests continue. While it rapidly becomes clear that the majority haven’t actually broken any laws, the Gestapo are firmly convinced that if unchecked these men would seek to remove the Nazi party from power by any means available. As a result, they start the process of using their powers of Untersuehungshaft to detain a number of those arrested indefinitely. While the majority will end up in Concentration Camps, those with political clout face spending time in a rather more gilded cage.
One of the interrogations is more successful, as at one point Goerdeler inadvertently admits to having spoken to French intelligence before the war. This is enough to get permission for the Gestapo to use coercive interrogation techniques (usually reserved for those without powerful friends) on him over the next few days, in the hope of finding out more about his co-conspirators.
One thing to remember here - the British and French will be very aware that the Germans claimed after the war that they were stabbed in the back by their own government, rather than defeated on the field of battle. That's something the British and French generals will be very, very aware of - and will not be willing to risk a repeat performance. So while we're unlikely to see demands for "unconditional" surrender (that being very much an American concept at the time), any terms offered will likely involve the entire German armed forces surrendering and the military occupation of Germany. After their experience 20 years before, they simply will not risk another Dolchstoßlegende.
If it's a choice between crossing the Rhine and having the Germans come back for round 4 in twenty years' time, that's no choice at all.
katchen
Banned
What Japan NEEDS is unchallenged control over Manchuria and Inner Mongolia (and perhaps a free hand in Kansu and Sinkiang). Japan needs the resources OUTSIDE the Great Wall. Japan does not need the millions of Chinese that it cannot control INSIDE the Great Wall.
Thanks for the update. Well if you do decide to wrap things up and not continue when you are up to where you have written, I will miss this timeline. I wish you luck with getting everything together and publishing somewhere. You have talent and I have appreciated your story. Even when I might disagree.
Well the Gestapo has scented the blood of the "traitors" and will be on a feeding frenzy now.
Well the Gestapo has scented the blood of the "traitors" and will be on a feeding frenzy now.
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