Cool, let me know where You want to discuss it!I did not say anything of the kind.
Then you are welcomed. 😉
Cool, let me know where You want to discuss it!I did not say anything of the kind.
Then you are welcomed. 😉
This is alt history so you can start with the alternatives and then we’ll see how it goes.Cool, let me know where You want to discuss it!
So we could agree then that the Russian Empire, or at least its ruling class if it's possible to separate that from the culture of a nation (which could be, given how Napoleonic era nobles in Russia would rather speak French than their native tongue), was western in so much as it competed on the same political and culutral field as the rest of Europe, but the notion then Russia ceased to be a part of the west with the revolution simply leads us back to a question I posed earlier: Does a nation stop being "west" when it falls from its previous heights and starts being exploited by the great powers? If so, can a state regain description of "west" by reforming itself into a position that's pliant to the global community? Overall, it seems it seems as if "the west" (as per my conclusion from this whole discussion) is simply a matter of playing the game a certain way. Japan learned this the hard way after WWI where despite having turned itself into European-style imperial power in just a quarter century and with a royal line to put Britain and and Austria to envy, was rejected at Versailles because the predominantly white nations didn't want competitors for mastery over the world.
Russia adopting latin alphabet would probably help toThis quotes just further prove my point. It is almost impossible for Russia to be western because nobody can state an irrefutable checklist of what it means to be Western and what countries are in it! How could Russia be Western when the "West" is just some nebulous concept that just boils down to "act like the way USA/UK/France, etc. wants you to act". The only way Russia can be unquestionably Western by all definitions would be if it became a colony of the USA or UK, but that isn't really possible with realistic PODs.
Here are some better thread ideas:
All of those ideas have far more tangible and measurable goals than "joining the West".
- Have Russia join the EU
- Have Russia become an advanced capitalist nation
- Have Russia become a liberal democracy
- Have Russia join NATO (although if Russia is an honest member of NATO, NATO doesn't need to exist).
- Have Russia become Protestant/Catholic
I have a project of TL on my mind and one of the Big butterflies caused by my PoD (which is the death of the future Nappy III around 1845) is that Russia Can more freely weaken the Ottoman Empire and impose its peace conditions without risking a foreign intervention (which OTL is know as the Crimean War). And I would want to know how this would have impacted Russia on its foreign policy as well as internally. But this thread is surely not the place to talk about that, so I'm not gonna expand further that point here.This is alt history so you can start with the alternatives and then we’ll see how it goes.
Sorry, I don't engage with people that start by insulting people.God, I can't tell if you are trolling or being that misinformed in field of economics.
There have been multitude of factors why Russia is where it is today, and no, Nemtsov or whatever won't cut it. Japan doesn't want to be seen as "Western", your lapdog-like behavior is frankly insulting to European values. Such Russia in your imagination would be more akin to a clown or royal court jester, nothing more.
Russia needed a soft-fascist industrial state capitalist state to flourish, preferably with some Georgism for optimizing the massive land available. It would never be seen as "Western", Germans and Japanese also had such phase when they wanted to adopt French instead of their own cultures, but here we are.
I can't tell if this whole thread is elaborate LARP or people genuinely believe that somehow think that world is not ruled by Realpolitik
This probably is the most definitive way to fulfill this quest in a premodern setting.The personal union with Poland and Lithuania materializes, and this sees Russian spiritual allegiance tilt toward Rome over time.
Exactly! The reason why we can have this conversation in the first place is because Europe, just like other other regions of the world, tends to follow specific "scripts" that or metapolicies that dictate the political maneuvers taken on a day to day basis. America must be the center of power. Britain must be distant from the continent. Japan is always the East Asian country that matches up with the west. Meanwhile China and India are devloping their own "scripts" where they're the rising gaggle of salarymen to outdo the global north. And as you point out in tracing the origins of the Europe-Russia split further back than I did, back to the division of the Roman Empire, you demonstrate how these "scripts" don't just emerge out of nowhere; instead they're reinforced time and time again by geogrpahical and cultural barriers whose effects play out through centuries. In fact a case can be made that the specific solution you point out (namely, unite Russia and the unambiguous west against a prominent power in Asia) was already applied during the height of the Russian Empire, both in the Great Game that drove the tsardom to expand into Central Asia and eventually clash with the British over spheres of influence and in the fact that Russia took part in the dismemberment of the Qing Dynasty.I think people are working the question backwards. The path of least resistance isn't about making Russia conform, it's also about making them less of an outlier such that there's no real need or desire to other them. Don't bother wasting time arguing what's part of the West or what isn't, that's as fluid as water depending on the context and the person talking. The only thing that needs to be said regarding 'The West' is that IMO it's defined by the defining of an east. And that's largely down to the splitting of the Roman Empire in two. Sure you've got the Bosporus/Anatolia as the start of Asia in ancient Greek thought, but is that even relevant to most people arguing these semantics? Of course not. They're labeling West or otherwise out of modern day political interests and reinterpretations of the past for the sake of seeing what they want.
Everything since that split, be it religion, language, w/e is just window dressing. So back to the question; make Russia a part of the West? Make them align with the rest of Europe against the 'East'. The easiest way is a superpower China that's able to exert political power abroad akin to how Europeans were able to from the ~XV century onwards. Russia is exposed as the first point of contact on land while the rest of Europe(The West) is exposed at sea. Or maybe a more successful Mongol horde that manages to raid all the way into France and Italy; a shared Mongol trauma would go a hell of a long way to establishing a common enemy that's an Other From The East that isn't the Russians themselves.
It isn't about changing Russia, it's about getting Russia to join the League of Haters of People East of Here
I would say that in the Anglo-West world it means NATO. So a collection of vassal countries under the orbit of the United States, which makes sense to a certain extent due to the castration of Europe as a relevant entity (aside from economics) after WW2. With the most active member and away from the american sphere in europe being france.I mentioned that earlier that I found very weird the use of term "West" meaning "NATO"
one word Argentina(a word that only exists as a replacement for "European", "White people") is the only one capable of material development.
I would say that in the Anglo-West world it means NATO. So a collection of vassal countries under the orbit of the United States, which makes sense to a certain extent due to the castration of Europe as a relevant entity (aside from economics) after WW2. With the most active member and away from the american sphere in europe being france.
one word Argentina
Try being a little less inflammatory. If you’re going to endorse “soft” fascism, be aware that’s a fairly extreme stance and that a little sugar might help your argument go down better.God, I can't tell if you are trolling or being that misinformed in field of economics.
There have been multitude of factors why Russia is where it is today, and no, Nemtsov or whatever won't cut it. Japan doesn't want to be seen as "Western", your lapdog-like behavior is frankly insulting to European values. Such Russia in your imagination would be more akin to a clown or royal court jester, nothing more.
Russia needed a soft-fascist industrial state capitalist state to flourish, preferably with some Georgism for optimizing the massive land available. It would never be seen as "Western", Germans and Japanese also had such phase when they wanted to adopt French instead of their own cultures, but here we are.
I can't tell if this whole thread is elaborate LARP or people genuinely believe that somehow think that world is not ruled by Realpolitik