Crazymachines
Banned
Damn the murderous autocratic bolsheviks and the teutonic horse they rode in on
To the Victor, Go the Spoils (Redux): A Plausible Central Powers Victory
- Thread starter TheReformer
- Start date
I would advice you to read some books on 1917-1921 events in Ukraine, sadly, I suspect, there's not much on English about this. Maybe Augenis can help you with that....
Cause I did read some Ukrainian history books and was studying it as part of history subject course in 10-11th grades.
I have a fair amount of material about the era, so there are some English language sources, but yes there could be more! Ironically a benefit of the war in Ukraine is that there has been a fair amount of journalists and others who have looked into it's history, which has been rather helpful.
Out of curiosity, was the whole anarchist black army just one of those groups who became famous in the aftermath but ultimately just many of the many groups at the time?
That said thank you for the information, sounds like certainly it's going to be a interesting place for the next couple of years as a state is constructed.
Makhno only really gained traction as Germans began to draw down contingent in October 1918 and then completely withdrew in November.
Without post-coup anarchy, Soviet and then White invasions, he wouldn't have gained any traction at all, as his guerrillas before October 1918 had only 2 thousand men in their ranks, and didn't have any strongholds, being in effect raider bandits who occasionally attacked German and Hetman detachments. Hell, their first major success, conquest of Hulaipole came on 27th of November, 1918, 2 weeks after Directoria coup,and their peak was in Spring-Summer 1919, and in November 1919.
If it weren't for Directoria coup, they would have gone down in history as another bunch of avanturists, borne out of Civil War chaos, becoming a footnote in books once chaos subsided.
If the scenario I laid out plays out, Makhno wouldn't be a famous guy at all. His band wouldn't score any significant successes, and most likely will be put down by Hetman police or Army somewhere around early 1919.
I see thanks a lot! Does make sense without the subsequent instability to grow he would just be known as one of the various bandits that where operating in the area given the war and post war chaos.
Exactly. He would be only known in realistic scenario only by history geeks in this TL.
Crazymachines
Banned
Why is there a gap between Thessalonica and the rest of greece? The Greek-Bulgarian border should look more like this:
Map of Europe as of the signing of the Treaty of Zurich
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Crazymachines
Banned
Right, but the above image I linked was the actual Greco Bulgarian border settled on by the central powers IRLIt's probably inspired by the Treaty of San Stefano:
Out of curiosity, will the UK and Ireland chapter also cover the Dominions?
I love this timeline, I think its a new all time favorite of mine and I am super excited to see how it develops! I'm especially interested in what happens to eastern Europe and Soviet-German relations, but I can imagine it'd be hard to research. I'm also looking forward to what happens to the Habsburgs. I also used to think that the Germans simply could not have succeeded in knocking out France in the Spring Offensive and that it was a doomed plan from the start, but you've changed my mind completely on that. Overall just 10/10 amazing.
I was a bit surprised with the death of FDR though, it is a bit random all things considered and while he certainly could've died in that explosion there's no specific reason he would have to die in this timeline. I think things would be more interesting if he survived. iirc FDR only gained notoriety in the Democratic Party following his service as Assistant Naval Secretary and his involvement in the Great War and more importantly the Paris Peace Conference, after his involvement in it he was viewed as a rising star in the party and became the Vice Presidential candidate in 1920 and consequently got all the perks of such a position including being invited to a fateful trip to Bear Mountain which is where he contracted Polio, which changed Franklins demeanor from the brash and pretentious man he once was into the empathetic and thoughtful man he would become known as. If the US's involvement in the war and more importantly peace treaty were reduced like it is in this timeline, FDR may not have received the notoriety he received in OTL, he never becomes the Vice Presidential candidate, never becomes a rising star, never catches Polio and remains mostly as he was; a self-centered, philandering nobody Democrat politician with no real political prospects. I think it'd be interesting to see where he ends up in this scenario, much more than getting RNGesus to whack him here and now.
I was a bit surprised with the death of FDR though, it is a bit random all things considered and while he certainly could've died in that explosion there's no specific reason he would have to die in this timeline. I think things would be more interesting if he survived. iirc FDR only gained notoriety in the Democratic Party following his service as Assistant Naval Secretary and his involvement in the Great War and more importantly the Paris Peace Conference, after his involvement in it he was viewed as a rising star in the party and became the Vice Presidential candidate in 1920 and consequently got all the perks of such a position including being invited to a fateful trip to Bear Mountain which is where he contracted Polio, which changed Franklins demeanor from the brash and pretentious man he once was into the empathetic and thoughtful man he would become known as. If the US's involvement in the war and more importantly peace treaty were reduced like it is in this timeline, FDR may not have received the notoriety he received in OTL, he never becomes the Vice Presidential candidate, never becomes a rising star, never catches Polio and remains mostly as he was; a self-centered, philandering nobody Democrat politician with no real political prospects. I think it'd be interesting to see where he ends up in this scenario, much more than getting RNGesus to whack him here and now.
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He was under a court order to not leave Georgia due to unpaid debts on an investment in a resort at warm springs. A NY ally paid his debts to allow him to run for governor of NY.
He only invested in the rehabilitation center at Warm Springs because of his Polio. If he didn't contract Polio he would never have invested in Warm Springs.
To be frank really here - yes I could have kept him around. However, reality is often a tad random. Weird things happen in history, often without explanation or logic.
To me, I actually think FDR was one of those people who utterly defied history, from his disease, to being effectively one of the only/first genuinely disabled Presidents in history. He was a force of nature, a rare personality that makes you question how true 'great man' theory actually is, and a man who I actually quite admire. So, in a sense, I felt that either I could not have that death happen, and thus almost certainly have him play some role in the timeline due to that, or I could quietly kill him off in an amusing yes, but equally not illogical, nor predictable manner. He becomes a footnote of history, much alike many other men.
This is a timeline based on logical, harder, more factual AH yes - but in this case I fancied some creative liberties. So, when presented with an opportunity, I decided to take it. Maybe I'll come to regret it and retcon it but, for now, I think it's an amusing twist which makes this world less grounded in data and facts, and reflects that randomness of history somewhat. Much like how Sverdlov here has not died from the Spanish flu, and Quentin Roosevelt was never killed over France. It allows the reader to see the potential effects of other 'great men' existing where in reality they were not given their chance. But, I'm happy to admit - it's somewhat random!
It creates a more defensible border for Bulgaria without the outright seizure of Thessalonica. Germany has no desire to make Greece a permanent rival in the region and Bulgaria is probably too overextended to take the city anyways (although I'm sure they would jump at the chance if Germany would let them). That sliver of territory might have had a Bulgarian majority at the time as well, I'm not sure though.
Dunno what that could mean. Greece stayed in the war until their eventual victory IRL.
Also appears to be a map of the original Greco-Ottoman border prior to the First Balkan War, not a Central Powers war aim map, as can be seen from the occupation zones - thus, I suspect, why they've not come back and answered me when I asked what their source was.
I chose the San Stefano borders as they're fairly appropriate and almost certainly reflective of the intended outcome for both Bulgaria (who did not want to annex a bunch of Greeks) and Greece (who it is worth remembering exited the war largely due to a royalist coup and were given 'lenient' terms). Not sure why Bulgaria would ever want to annex a bunch of northern Greece - and though Thessaloniki would probably have been a prize target, I suspect somewhat that Germany wouldn't have wanted them to have it to avoid discrediting the new regime, and due to the thin coastal strip which means it's basically indefensible on the Greek side anyway.
Also, on a side note - next update is progressing very nicely. May re-format though.
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