Lands of Red and Gold

[EdT]

Fantastic post, really interesting stuff this. I wish I knew enough to comment more, but it all feels spot on.

Argh, you beat me to the punch!

Howabouts if I do the Formative Era and you do the Classical?

 

[The Sandman]

Three thoughts.

First, is there anything in the northern tropical regions that Gunnagalia would consider worth harvesting? As you've mentioned, the flora is different enough that domestication won't have had time to get underway before the Europeans show up, but are there any plants that would be worth simply gathering them wild and then shipping them south?

Second, when the Maori show up, I presume they'll be bringing pigs along with them. Is there anything else on New Zealand that the Gunnagalians might consider worth the trouble of importing? Particularly in terms of some of the exotic fauna, or any potential crops the Gunnagalians might want to domesticate?

Third, how much contact was there between the Maori and the greater SE Asian trade routes? Because what you mentioned about spice made me wonder if there would be any chance of Gunnagalians importing spice trees.

And come to think of it, the one other area where there might be some small degree of outside trade (assuming I'm not completely wrong about the currents and wind patterns) is in the OTL Perth region. In OTL, even if someone from India or Indonesia had stumbled across the area before the Europeans, there simply wouldn't have been anything worth the trouble of stopping for. With an agricultural civilization, though, trading for food before heading back across the Indian might be useful. There wouldn't be much contact, but perhaps enough that the Dutchmen from your first snippet knew that there was something worth looking for there, if not the precise details.

In particular, is sericulture viable in Australia? If that somehow made it to the continent, it might have some impact on the local trade patterns.

 

[Mark-ITSOT]

Do the Gunnagal ever take to the seas?

Even if it's just sailing around the coast.

 

[Scarecrow]

Fantastic post, really interesting stuff this. I wish I knew enough to comment more, but it all feels spot on.




Howabouts if I do the Formative Era and you do the Classical?

After all might bluff I might have to leave it in your capable hands, the real world has interveened recently leaving me less time for my own projects ATM.

 

[Jared]

What about the effects of Old World diseases on the Australians?

I assume they've been as isolated as the Amerindians were. And for much longer.

The effects of Eurasian diseases on the Australians will be very, very bad. Perhaps not quite as bad as they were on the Amerindians, for a couple of reasons which will be touched on in the next post, but still catastrophic. Figure 80% die-off as an absolute minimum.

I'd also very much like to have a go, though an EdT map would be pretty awesome .

Hmm, how many volunteers do I have here?

Oooo have they bred up something new? Or is this just strains of Eurasian diseases?

There is a rather different strain of one disease which is similar to Eurasian diseases, one which is closely related but a distinct species, and one which is quite different from anything which has been seen before.

If its the former and virulent then that'll have a long-term slight depressent effect on global population growth, which would be very interesting.

The Gunnagal speak of this thing called "the Waiting Death." The Dutch will speak of, well...

Well they certainly are going to find smallpox an unpleasent suprise.

And measles, mumps, tuberculosis, typhus, dysentery, diptheria, whooping cough, chickenpox...

Or have everyone each do a small section of the map...in different styles and then mosaic them together

That would be epic... Especially if each person did one particular country or region and it all came together as the entire continent of Australia...

Or we could just work together... time will tell.

Hmm...

That was an excellent update, and I can see that you've set this up for some sort of climactic fall, or a war or something terrible.

Things will be both good and bad for them in the next couple of posts. On the one hand, there's a developing empire. On the other hand, there's a developing empire...

That being said, the Gunnagul people have advanced so far in the span of the last 4-500 years and i can see that they've reached some sort of "renaissance", how far can we expect their technology to be by the time europeans arrive in another 1300 years?

The Classical Gunnagal of c. 1 AD are roughly equivalent to where the Sumerians were in, oh, 3000 BC. Developed quite a few things, but only just got writing going. 1600 years after that, in Mesopotamia, quite a few technologies and social organisation had developed, but it was still not even the Iron Age.

Of course, the Classical Gunnagal are not quite like the Sumerians. There's one thing which will help them develop faster, technology-wise: the higher urban populations. But then they are also relatively isolated from other cultures, which will slow down technological progress. So as to how far things progress, well... They will be more advanced, certainly. But there will be a lot of things they don't know how to do.

Fascinating as always, Jared! Keep 'er comin'!

Gracias. Check this space in two weeks...

You've said you've done non-fiction work (academic writing)? A polished synthesis like this shows it.

Thanks. Yes, I have had done a bit of academic writing, some of which has even been published. Hopefully that doesn't show all the time... sometimes it's a better idea not to sound like an academic.

I would have thought that a large civilisation like the above would have a much greater chance of trade or contact with the SE Asia peoples. Plus I believe the Maori/Pacific Islands have been noted as trading partners.

Perhaps we could see some sort of Maoris as Vikings scenario?

There are various reasons why the Classical Gunnagal don't develop much in the way of boat-building. One is that their experience of boats is the sort of shallow-draft, flat-bottomed vessels which work well in a relatively shallow river like the Murray, but which aren't easily adapted to the sea. A second reason is that unlike most other major rivers, the Murray is not navigable from the sea. It's not possible to sail boats in and out of the Murray from the open sea, which is rather a disincentive for developing seafaring technologies.

A third and probably most important reason is that the seas around Australia are not conducive to the development of long-range seafaring. Most early seafaring developed in relatively small, stable seas (e.g. Med, Baltic, Persian Gulf) where it was possible to work out some seagoing techniques before getting into really rough waters. This allowed for the evolution of sailing technology. Australian waters aren't like that. There's all sorts of stormy weather, horrible currents, a lack of many good harbours (especially along the southern coast), and winds and currents which make reaching Asia and then coming back home difficult.

All in all, while maritime technology will slowly develop in Australia, it's not the sort of place where it's likely to develop quickly. The arrival of the Maori will actually kick-start maritime technology, but it's only about 300 years from that until Europeans arrive.

For Maoris as Vikings, well... The technological advantage lies rather more with the *Australian farmers. The Maori have stone tools, the Gunnagal have bronze weapons and armour. That's not to say that there'd be no raiding, but I suspect peaceful trading will be the main form of interaction.

Yay for the Classical Gunnagal!

Scandinavian merchants traditionally captured slaves in part to haul stuff to the markets where the stuff (and the slaves) could be sold.

That may happen in certain circumstances, although places to go raiding for slaves in Australia may be somewhat limited.

Fantastic post, really interesting stuff this. I wish I knew enough to comment more, but it all feels spot on.

Merci.

Three thoughts.

First, is there anything in the northern tropical regions that Gunnagalia would consider worth harvesting? As you've mentioned, the flora is different enough that domestication won't have had time to get underway before the Europeans show up, but are there any plants that would be worth simply gathering them wild and then shipping them south?

A few spices, perhaps, and maybe a couple of species of fruit. But not much. There may be some other things - Australia's only genuine amber is found in Cape York, for instance. But on the whole, northern Australia won't be of a great deal of interest to the Gunnagal further south.

Second, when the Maori show up, I presume they'll be bringing pigs along with them.

The Maori didn't have pigs. Their only domestic animal was the dog. (Although the Polynesian rat tagged along to NZ, too.) They missed out on a lot of the Polynesian crops and agricultural package. Sweet potato was the main thing which they could grow (there was a little farming of taro and other tropical crops, but not very much.)

Is there anything else on New Zealand that the Gunnagalians might consider worth the trouble of importing? Particularly in terms of some of the exotic fauna, or any potential crops the Gunnagalians might want to domesticate?

In terms of fauna, the moa will probably be hunted out too quickly to do much with. Moa were also slow-growing birds (even the smaller ones), taking about ten years to reach adulthood. Emus, by contrast, do it in about a year. (This is probably why emus survived human hunting while moas didn't.)

For domesticable crops, not much that's native to New Zealand. Bracken fern was used by the Maori, but that's also native to Australia, and not really of much use (low energy value). There was a tree called the cabbage tree which was semi-cultivated, but again it's of no huge advantage. The main crops which will interest the Gunnagal will be the sweet potato and taro, which will grow in tropical areas of Australia. And New Zealand flax, which was a very good fibre crop. (Unrelated to Eurasian or Australian flax.)

New Zealand greenstone (jade) will be valued, and probably a few exotic woods (kauri), kauri gum, and a few other things along those lines.

Third, how much contact was there between the Maori and the greater SE Asian trade routes?

There was no significant contact between the Maori and the greater SE Asian trade routes. There seems to have been a little low-level contact between the Maori and their ancestral islands (the Cook Islands, or maybe Tahiti, depending on who you ask), which lasted until maybe the fifteenth century before fading away. The Maori lost most of the long-distance navigation skills after reaching New Zealand - they found nothing worth sailing that way for, I suppose. After contact with Australia, they will find something sailing that way for, and that probably means a very slow transmission of ideas and goods via the Cook Islands, but that will take a while to have much effect elsewhere in the world.

Because what you mentioned about spice made me wonder if there would be any chance of Gunnagalians importing spice trees.

Probably too isolated from the main trade routes for spices to be imported to Australia, alas. Especially since the main Asian spices won't grow in the areas where the Gunnagal live.

And come to think of it, the one other area where there might be some small degree of outside trade (assuming I'm not completely wrong about the currents and wind patterns) is in the OTL Perth region. In OTL, even if someone from India or Indonesia had stumbled across the area before the Europeans, there simply wouldn't have been anything worth the trouble of stopping for. With an agricultural civilization, though, trading for food before heading back across the Indian might be useful. There wouldn't be much contact, but perhaps enough that the Dutchmen from your first snippet knew that there was something worth looking for there, if not the precise details.

The problem with sailing up the western coast of Australia is that it's easy to go north (barring reefs), but damnably difficult to sail south. The Dutch explored from south to north without difficulty, but the prevailing winds and currents make it a lot harder to go the other way. What contact there was between Indonesia and Australia was mostly confined to the north (following the monsoon winds back and forth), not further south. Even the native Australias in the Perth region would find that they could sail north, but they'd probably have to walk back...

In particular, is sericulture viable in Australia? If that somehow made it to the continent, it might have some impact on the local trade patterns.

I'm not sure whether sericulture would be viable in the south of Australia. It would be viable in the north, I presume, but the south may be too cold. Of course, as per the above, it's unlikely to get established anyway. Certain kinds of aboriculture would probably work, though. (Cork wood springs to mind, and sandalwood.)

Do the Gunnagal ever take to the seas?

Even if it's just sailing around the coast.

Eventually, slowly. They do colonise Tasmania on their own. Contact with the Maori and exposure to Polynesian sailing techniques will revolutionise their maritime tradition. By the time of European contact, there will be a seafaring culture based in OTL south-eastern Queensland (the Kiyungu) which is slowly exploring further north, but they won't quite have made it to contact with Asia before Europeans show up.

 

[Hendryk]

And measles, mumps, tuberculosis, typhus, dysentery, diptheria, whooping cough, chickenpox...

Any chance whatsoever of the bacteriological shock being lessened by earlier exposure to, say, germs brought over by Javanese traders or even the odd contact with New Guineans?

 

[Julius Vogel]

The dominant breed of feral pig in NZ currently is called the "Captain Cook" pig, so named because apparently his expedition may have released pigs. I'm not sure if this is actually now a recognisable species or just a catch-all term for all post contact released feral pig species, but it is probably the latter. They are getting dammed big now, I recently saw the carcass of one that stretched diagonally across the deck of a small ute (pickup)

 

[Fulcrumvale]

I wonder how the Gunnagal syllable-based writing system will interact with the perennial-driven high urban population. At the very least, there’ll be a large scribe/bureaucrat class…but given the oversized urban populations, is it possible that something approaching mass literacy (by pre-modern standards, at any rate) could come into existence? The number of symbols seems a bit high, and the multiple interpretations of those symbols will be annoying, but some simplification should be possible in the future and the urban population should be a significant inbuilt advantage.

Also, will this writing system spread throughout Australia, or will others emerge outside of the Gunnagal area of influence?

 

[The Sandman]

Any chance whatsoever of the bacteriological shock being lessened by earlier exposure to, say, germs brought over by Javanese traders or even the odd contact with New Guineans?

While I suspect Jared will answer this one, I'm going to guess it's unlikely. The problem is that without a reservoir species to keep reinfecting people, the *Aborigines won't have the opportunity to develop lasting immunities. They'll just die. Also, the populations in the northern areas that the Javanese and New Guineans are most likely to be able to reach are probably small enough that a community exposed to the new diseases would be dead too quickly for the disease to spread outside of it.

Of course, domesticated emu means that at a minimum influenza is likely to be common enough that the Europeans won't have much to add on that front.

The one thing that might provoke some limited direct contact between the Javanese and Gunnagalia would be if Gunnagalic wares start turning up in the villages the Javanese visited to get sea cucumbers. A Javanese trader might well be curious enough about the unfamiliar style of the goods that he'd try to locate the source.

The miserable sailing conditions around Australia still apply, of course, but it might be worth enough for the Javans to be sending one or two equivalents of the Manila galleon each year on the long haul around the continent to trade for exotic goods. This probably wouldn't be until later, though.

Also, is the Bight navigable enough for someone from the Junditwara or another culture in OTL Victoria to have hit upon the idea of using boats to trade with the southwest, as opposed to having to pay through the nose to get things moved by land across the Nullarbor?

 

[Historico]

Ok, now I am caught up on atleast on of your timeline's Jared, and I must say bravo on a start of another awesome timeline. I do have a few questions however...

1. How will the small, relativley arid continent of Australia support such large civilizations this early on in its history? Might extensive Irrigation and slash/burn cultivation techniques lead to more desertification and wildfires?

2. Might we see the invention of the wheel in Australia eventhough the Aborignees make due without a beast of burden? What exact size are these new temples and palaces built in the Classical period? Are the Labor drafts still implemented in this new Period? cuz if they are a well or some type of Pull/Lever system could make that a whole lot easier.

3. With the domestication of the Koll as a household pet, what happens to mainland thylacines? In otl they died around 2,000 years ago...Might they survive with more usage of the Koll instead of with invasive Dingo species?

4. Also what is the exact sociological role of Women and Children in the kitjigal based society of TTL's aboriginee's? Any formalized education between the nobility and such?

Other than that, I can say I am thoroughly enjoying TTL and Keep it comming

 

[Jared]

Any chance whatsoever of the bacteriological shock being lessened by earlier exposure to, say, germs brought over by Javanese traders or even the odd contact with New Guineans?

Not in any way which will make a long-term difference. Northern Australian contact with Indonesian peoples was sporadic, if it occurred at all, up until the point when the Bugis/Macassars started visiting to collect sea cucumbers. There's considerable disagreement over the dates when that started (anywhere from the fifteenth to eighteenth centuries). Eventually, though, the Bugis brought smallpox over. It hit hard in the immediate areas where they were in contact, but burned out due to low population densities. It didn't reach southern Australia that way.

The story with New Guinean contact was similar. There were occasional contacts through the Torres Strait islands, but there were low population densities on both sides. This makes it difficult for epidemic diseases to spread.

The dominant breed of feral pig in NZ currently is called the "Captain Cook" pig, so named because apparently his expedition may have released pigs. I'm not sure if this is actually now a recognisable species or just a catch-all term for all post contact released feral pig species, but it is probably the latter. They are getting dammed big now, I recently saw the carcass of one that stretched diagonally across the deck of a small ute (pickup)

Interesting. I never had much to do with hunting pigs when I lived in NZ, but I did hear a few stories about some big, ugly bastards. (Of course, that could have been referring either to the hunters or the pigs.)

I wonder how the Gunnagal syllable-based writing system will interact with the perennial-driven high urban population. At the very least, there’ll be a large scribe/bureaucrat class…but given the oversized urban populations, is it possible that something approaching mass literacy (by pre-modern standards, at any rate) could come into existence? The number of symbols seems a bit high, and the multiple interpretations of those symbols will be annoying, but some simplification should be possible in the future and the urban population should be a significant inbuilt advantage.

Certainly in the Murray cities, there's going to be a lot of people who can read to a reasonable degree. (Less who can write fluently, if only for lack of practice. The writing system is going to change over time, too, but that may not always make things easier. Languages do change over time. The Gunnagal script was excellent for matching the syllable sounds which the people of the Murray basin used about 200 BC. Those symbols may not match so well as the spoken language changes. (English spelling, anyone?)

Also, will this writing system spread throughout Australia, or will others emerge outside of the Gunnagal area of influence?

Writing will spread both by direct borrowing and stimulus-diffusion, but it will take a while in some cases.

While I suspect Jared will answer this one, I'm going to guess it's unlikely. The problem is that without a reservoir species to keep reinfecting people, the *Aborigines won't have the opportunity to develop lasting immunities. They'll just die.

If the diseases spread far enough south to reach the Murray cities, they may become endemic. The minimum population size required to sustain an endemic disease varies a lot between pathogens, but a couple of million would usually be enough. (Depending on how many asymptomatic carriers are formed, for example.) However, the diseases would have trouble reaching that far.

Also, the populations in the northern areas that the Javanese and New Guineans are most likely to be able to reach are probably small enough that a community exposed to the new diseases would be dead too quickly for the disease to spread outside of it.

Also, the low population density makes it difficult for diseases to be transmitted across those distances.

Of course, domesticated emu means that at a minimum influenza is likely to be common enough that the Europeans won't have much to add on that front.

Oddly enough, emus don't seem to be afflicted by avian influenza, or many other diseases either. Those which they have are rarely transmitted to humans either, at least with what's been found out from farming emus so far. (Still early days, though.)

Of course, the Gunnagal also farm ducks, which are very prone to avian influenza. So influenza will not be unknown. Of course, given how fast the influenza virus mutates, the forms which develop in Australia will be those to which Europeans have no immunity. And vice versa for European strains in Australia.

The one thing that might provoke some limited direct contact between the Javanese and Gunnagalia would be if Gunnagalic wares start turning up in the villages the Javanese visited to get sea cucumbers. A Javanese trader might well be curious enough about the unfamiliar style of the goods that he'd try to locate the source.

A few odds and ends do turn up in northern Australia. The direct trade routes don't spread that far, but goods do get passed on and on. Of course, the ones which are most likely to be passed on are some very useful bronze tools and the like. These would not necessarily excite any Javanese traders all that much. A few bits of jewellery may show up, which may attract a bit more interest.

Also, this assumes that the Javanese (or others) are in contact with northern Australia in the first place. All the sources I've found say that the earliest definite date for the Bugis to visit northern Australia is in the eighteenth century, and apparently the Bugis really got going in seafaring in the late seventeenth century. This is after the Dutch will have already made contact with the Australian peoples. Javanese traders may try to visit, too, but the Dutch and other Europeans had a habit of trying to discourage that kind of trading - they tried to force trade onto European ships where they could.

The miserable sailing conditions around Australia still apply, of course, but it might be worth enough for the Javans to be sending one or two equivalents of the Manila galleon each year on the long haul around the continent to trade for exotic goods. This probably wouldn't be until later, though.

The sailing route down the west coast of Australia is a pain to do from north to south (much easier the other way), but it's not impossible. Once the Javans know about Australia, some of their traders may try.

Also, is the Bight navigable enough for someone from the Junditwara or another culture in OTL Victoria to have hit upon the idea of using boats to trade with the southwest, as opposed to having to pay through the nose to get things moved by land across the Nullarbor?

Once someone's worked out a decently seaworthy boat, the waters of the Bight can be sailed from west to east without too much trouble. (Stormy at times, but doable.) Going the other way, though, can be a complete pain - the prevailing winds are usually strong and almost always westerlies. There's records of clipper ships from later days which had so much trouble sailing from Victoria to Western Australia that they had to go all the way around the Pacific, Cape Horn, the South Atlantic and the Indian Ocean before ending up in Western Australia that way.

Ok, now I am caught up on atleast on of your timeline's Jared, and I must say bravo on a start of another awesome timeline. I do have a few questions however...

1. How will the small, relativley arid continent of Australia support such large civilizations this early on in its history? Might extensive Irrigation and slash/burn cultivation techniques lead to more desertification and wildfires?

This is where the nature of their agriculture plays such a huge difference. The Gunnagal farmers do not use slash and burn at all, and they have only very limited use of irrigation for farming. Their use of perennial, drought-adapted plants is what makes the difference. Perennial plants don't need plowing in the same way, and need on the whole much less water. This means much reduced soil erosion, no large-scale use of irrigation, and so on.

The Gunnagal do use a form of irrigation for creating artificial wetlands, of course, but that isn't the sort of thing which is going to lead to widespread soil erosion or desertification.

2. Might we see the invention of the wheel in Australia eventhough the Aborignees make due without a beast of burden? What exact size are these new temples and palaces built in the Classical period? Are the Labor drafts still implemented in this new Period? cuz if they are a well or some type of Pull/Lever system could make that a whole lot easier.

The wheel is probably going to be one of those ideas which just doesn't occur to people, at least not for wheeled vehicles. Travois will probably be used, but without any beast of burden larger than a dog, wheels aren't going to be of much help anyway.

I haven't specified the exact size of the temples and palaces which are built, but these aren't small constructions. At least as large as a lot of the ziggurats built in Mesopotamia, or a lot of the stoneworks in Ancient Egypt or the Classical Maya. Nothing as big as the Great Pyramid, but still some monuments which will impress when Europeans arrive.

To build them, the Gunnagal use a system of labour drafts, and various engineering techniques. As engineers, they've worked out a lot of practical construction techniques along those lines - ropes and pulleys, levers, and so on. (Use of pulleys would of course assume some kind of wheel for rotating the rope around, but that doesn't mean that they will also be inspired to use wheeled vehicles.)

3. With the domestication of the Koll as a household pet, what happens to mainland thylacines? In otl they died around 2,000 years ago...Might they survive with more usage of the Koll instead of with invasive Dingo species?

Quolls aren't large enough to have any effects on thylacines or dingos. The exact date when thylacines died out on the mainland is disputed, but regardless of the date, the same processes will still drive them to extinction. There will still be wild dingos, which seems to have been what made the difference. Mainland thylacines would also be affected by the side-effects of human hunting - more humans hunting out kangaroos and emus would eliminate the thylacine's major prey species.

4. Also what is the exact sociological role of Women and Children in the kitjigal based society of TTL's aboriginee's? Any formalized education between the nobility and such?

There are rather sharp social divisions between a lot of what's considered women's work and men's work. (Early child-rearing being the most obvious example of what's considered women's work.) Property rights for women are actually pretty good in terms of being able to inherit separately and retain some control over their own inheritance. (A woman's husband does not automatically gain control over any property she brought into the marriage, for instance.) The Gunnagal don't have anything approaching equal rights for women, but one of the effects of the kitjigal system is that marriage is viewed as a partnership between separate people.

Formalised education does occur in the Classical period, especially with the spread of literacy. There are the equivalent of schools developing, mostly scribal schools and the like.

Other than that, I can say I am thoroughly enjoying TTL and Keep it comming

Gracias.

And on another note, EdT has been kind enough to design a map of the Formative Gunnagal. So, presenting the first map of the LoRaG timeline:

 

[The Sandman]

Two more thoughts.

First, the one use of the wheel they may stumble across, vehicle-wise, is the wheelbarrow. I'm not sure how early those were invented OTL, but it seems like the sort of thing that's both relatively simple in concept and immensely useful even without something beyond human-power to pull it.

Second, with your description of the society that's going to pop up in Tasmania, I can see thylacines being preserved as a status symbol. Ordinary schlubs may use dingoes, but as far as Tasmanians are concerned real men hunt and fight with thylacines. The wild population may well be in trouble (although the pressure to exterminate them due to supposed livestock predation won't exist, the general environmental changes will), but a tamed population may well last indefinitely.

What sort of design features do their public structures tend to have, by the way? I'm guessing that they would undoubtedly have developed their own stylistic tendencies, but I don't know enough about OTL Aborigines to be able to say anything about what those might be. The only things I can think of, from how you've described them, are that they'd probably tend to use lots of color and decoration wherever possible, that gardening styles would probably involve copious quantities of flowers for a similar reason, and that water would be a major element of the homes (and at least in some areas a sign of status; the more water you can afford to use for frivolous purposes like decorative elements in your garden, the higher status you are).

I'm not sure if you mentioned it, but do the Gunnagal have plumbing and sewer networks?

Also, I just realized that the other thing the Gunnagal might want to harvest from the tropical north, assuming that there are any viable trees for the purpose: wood for artisanal use. Given the likely need to preserve a lot of the wood in their heartland for industrial usage, the ability to have furniture, artwork, or even homes constructed from imported northern wood might become another status symbol.

 

[Fatal Wit]

I'm not sure whether its true or not(can't find any sources to back it up), but according to Wiki their was a second eel-farming tribe located on the Murray river IOTL(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indigenous_Australians#Before_British_arrival)

I assume, given the research you have done, that you will know whether that claim is accurate or not? If so, what was its fate in this TL?

 

[Analytical Engine]

Hurray for the map!

 

[Historico]

Nice Map Jared...Man, I was really hoping those old thylacines would make it in your timeline...Also are any of the chance that gunpowder may be discovered and developed ITTL's Australia? Or any other kind of Advanced Weaponry that would help the natives fight off the Europeans?

 

[Jared]

Two more thoughts.

First, the one use of the wheel they may stumble across, vehicle-wise, is the wheelbarrow. I'm not sure how early those were invented OTL, but it seems like the sort of thing that's both relatively simple in concept and immensely useful even without something beyond human-power to pull it.

Wheelbarrows were certainly something I thought about having them develop. But while they are an extremely useful invention, they're also something which seems to have been invented only once. With something which has only been invented once, there's always the question of whether it's plausible for it to have been independently invented. Especially when there were other societies (Mesoamerica) who even had wheels but never came up with the wheelbarrow.

On a more general level, I'm also concerned that I'd be pushing plausibility if I had the *Australian societies independently invent everything useful which they needed. Sometimes ideas just don't occur to people. So I've picked a few areas where it's simply a case of the idea did not occur to anyone within the relevant timeframe.

Second, with your description of the society that's going to pop up in Tasmania, I can see thylacines being preserved as a status symbol. Ordinary schlubs may use dingoes, but as far as Tasmanians are concerned real men hunt and fight with thylacines. The wild population may well be in trouble (although the pressure to exterminate them due to supposed livestock predation won't exist, the general environmental changes will), but a tamed population may well last indefinitely.

I'm not sure if thylacines are domesticable. They can probably be tamed, but breeding them in captivity was never easy, if it was done at all. (I couldn't find any records of successful captive breeding in a quick online search.) Wild thylacines will be in a lot of trouble: Gunnagalic settlers will bring dingos with them, and they'll also be inclined to hunt out the emus and kangaroos which were a large part of the thylacine's diet.

What sort of design features do their public structures tend to have, by the way? I'm guessing that they would undoubtedly have developed their own stylistic tendencies, but I don't know enough about OTL Aborigines to be able to say anything about what those might be.

Lots of colour, ornamental finishings, and other such decoration. We'd probably consider them gaudy. Their styles are vaguely reminiscent of what OTL Aboriginal peoples use, but only distantly. The general architectural styles are similarly ornamented. Their main buildings don't use columns for support - their masonry doesn't work along those lines - but they often have decorative columns around the outside. While the individual artistic and architectural features are quite different, the overall impression is probably closest to the Baroque period of European art and architecture. In Technicolour.

The only things I can think of, from how you've described them, are that they'd probably tend to use lots of color and decoration wherever possible, that gardening styles would probably involve copious quantities of flowers for a similar reason, and that water would be a major element of the homes (and at least in some areas a sign of status; the more water you can afford to use for frivolous purposes like decorative elements in your garden, the higher status you are).

Water to the Gunnagal is a precious resource. Ornamental gardening amongst them revolves more around the use of patterns; trees and plants with different coloured leaves and the like. Flowers are relatively under-used amongst the Gunnagal - they go more for perennial plants which they prune into the desired shape. Flowers and much more copious use of water is typical of the Yadji/Junditmara, who live in what is (relatively) more well-watered country. But the epitome of the gardener's art, in Australian terms, can be found amongst the Atjuntja in the south-west. Of which more anon.

I'm not sure if you mentioned it, but do the Gunnagal have plumbing and sewer networks?

Yes, on a level roughly comparable to what the Indus Valley civilization had. In the Gunnagal's case, it's a logical extension of the same work which they do in creating wetlands.

Also, I just realized that the other thing the Gunnagal might want to harvest from the tropical north, assuming that there are any viable trees for the purpose: wood for artisanal use. Given the likely need to preserve a lot of the wood in their heartland for industrial usage, the ability to have furniture, artwork, or even homes constructed from imported northern wood might become another status symbol.

Large pieces of tropical wood would be rather difficult to transport, although smaller pieces for artwook would probably be possible. In a general sort of way, though, the Gunnagal are not short of wood. Not just from wattles, although that's the biggest sort. They understand about coppicing, and there are several kinds of eucalypts which grow quickly and can give very large amounts of useful timber if coppiced on rotational cycle. River red gums, in particular, grow very well in plantations.

I'm not sure whether its true or not(can't find any sources to back it up), but according to Wiki their was a second eel-farming tribe located on the Murray river IOTL(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indigenous_Australians#Before_British_arrival)

I assume, given the research you have done, that you will know whether that claim is accurate or not? If so, what was its fate in this TL?

As far as I know, there was no eel-farming along the Murray itself. The source is probably from Jared Diamond, who made a similar claim in Guns, Germs and Steel (although he may have been talking about general fish farming - my copy is buried in a box somewhere). That page on Polonopedia lists Guns, Germs and Steel as their number one resource, so that may be where the claim came from.

I think that what happened was that people got confused with the Brewarrina fish traps. These are a system of very old, very ingenious rocky mazes nearthe Darling-Barwon river junction, which were used to corral and trap migrating fish. These were used as a source of food where several thousand people would gather seasonally for large corroborees to feast on the fish. However, while this system was very clever, as far as I know it did not produce any sedentary populations - the people gathered for part of the year, and then dispersed for the rest of the year to live off the land. The eel-farmers of the Gunditjmara, by contrast, were sedentary and lived in the same area permanently.

The fate of the Brewarrina fish traps ITTL would probably be that Gunnagalic farmers moved in there and settled the region permanently. The fish traps would be a welcome additional source of food, but mostly they would be relying on agriculture.

Hurray for the map!

Nice Map Jared...

Credit goes to EdT. I remain in the realm of the graphically challenged.

Man, I was really hoping those old thylacines would make it in your timeline...

Sadly, I suspect that their fate will be an earlier die-off than ITTL. Although they do still survive over in DoD, so all is not lost...

Also are any of the chance that gunpowder may be discovered and developed ITTL's Australia? Or any other kind of Advanced Weaponry that would help the natives fight off the Europeans?

Not really much chance of working out gunpowder. The technological leaps required would just be too high. They may have figured out some early incendiary weapons, but not too far beyond that.

Broadly speaking, *Australian society is going to be at a level more advanced than that of the New World civilizations at the time of European contact (although not more advanced in all areas), due to a longer history of urban civilization. But it would be extremely implausible for them to have the sort of advanced weaponry which would let them fight off Europeans over the long term. They will put up a much better fight than anything which happened in the Americas, though.

 

[freodhoric]

I'm not sure if thylacines are domesticable. They can probably be tamed, but breeding them in captivity was never easy, if it was done at all. (I couldn't find any records of successful captive breeding in a quick online search.)

Same with cheetahs. This may be stretching a little but, assuming thylacines are easily tamed, could some really rich dude set up a preserve where the thylacines can breed? Still doesn't solve the dingo problem.

 

[Geekhis Khan]

Same with cheetahs. This may be stretching a little but, assuming thylacines are easily tamed, could some really rich dude set up a preserve where the thylacines can breed? Still doesn't solve the dingo problem.

Aren't preserves a rather more modern concept?

Assuming they survive to Euro contact perhaps they could live on in zoos until the preserve idea comes around.

 

[mojojojo]

Kudos, on your most excellent updates!
IIRC, you said that emus will not be making the trip to New Zealand. Will Quolls and Ducks?
Also, will dingoes be bred/trained for herding emus? Or is such a thing even possible?

 

[freodhoric]

Aren't preserves a rather more modern concept?

Assuming they survive to Euro contact perhaps they could live on in zoos until the preserve idea comes around.

As a place to preserve nature, yes. As private places for nobility to hunt, no. I'm thinking about the forests in England, and about the King's deer.