Keynes' Cruisers

[Paternas]

I don't know why Normandie was interned in NYC while the other Allied liners were not in OTL. Given that Bearn was able to make ferry trips, not every ship was interned. Can anyone provide reasoning?

After some further googling, according to a quora response the English wikipedia is incorrect and she was only interned in april 41. The ship apparently remained in New York harbor out of fear for german submarines(?) according to the French wiki. Only a skeleton crew stayed behind.

 

[mudhead]

I don't know why Normandie was interned in NYC while the other Allied liners were not in OTL. Given that Bearn was able to make ferry trips, not every ship was interned. Can anyone provide reasoning?

That question also baffles me. I found one site that says that she wasn't interned - a couple of answers on Quora.

British liners were not warships of a belligerent state & therefore, unlike warships, were not liable to be interned if they stayed in a neutral port. Same for Normandie until December 1941.

I think that Wikipedia in English has it wrong, & Normandie was not interned in 1939, but after the fall of France. There was no legal basis for her internment until the fall of France, at the earliest. It was a French choice to leave her in New York.

According to French sources, e.g. French Wikipedia (Normandie (paquebot) — Wikipédia), she was in French hands, with a skeleton crew aboard, until April 1941, when a detachment of the USCG was tasked with supervising her & her crew. She was requisitioned in December 1941, after the German declaration of war on the USA.

So, she was not treated differently from the British liners.

The French liner SS Normandie was in NY harbour when war broke out, and the crew decided to stay there for safety reasons. She was later interned by the US, who were neutral at the time. The British liners did not request protection from the US. Also, they were not belligerent naval vessels, which is one of the criteria they must fulfill if they are to be interned.

 

[objob213]

Have just read all of this story from the start... Now want more
Keep up the good work

 

[fester]

August 12, 1940 Fort Devens, Massachusetts

Sleep, that is all he wanted. Sleep, that is all he needed. Sleep that had to be delayed.


His body ached. The quartermaster found a pair of guns for the machine gun section. Both were rejects that were not shipped to Britain last month but they were enough to train on. The machine gun section was a tight knit team, the gunner humped the gun while everyone else humped ammunition and spare barrels. And they humped everything. Somehow when they were supposed to have ended up at the small arms range this morning, Captain Maston took them on a seventeen mile force march without adequate provisions. Thankfully enough men had some money in their pocket to buy sandwiches and pie in Leominster but the company had disappeared for the entire day and no one looked for them.

There was only another week of training.

“Pat, you got some foot lotion in your pack?”

“No Mikey, got nothing there for you”

His squad mate went into the shower as Patrick worked on dissembling the machine gun and cleaning it as he should do after a long march. An hour later, he was done. The other machine gun in the section had not been touched. An another hour after dinner was served in the chow hall, the section had one cleaned and ready machine gun and one that no one could attest to.

Training this past week was frustrating. He was tired, he was sore, and everything hurt. At least he was fit enough. Half of his company failed the obstacle course. Captain Maston attempted to run through it but was gassed by the second twelve foot wall. He finished it at a solid walk that would have been respectable for his grandmother. Live fire exercises were at least common. His machine gun team had fired five hundred rounds over four range sessions. One of his friends in A Company had to be taken to the hospital as a grenade exploded seven feet from him during a grenade throwing exercise.

All of a sudden, a string of ambulances rushed by. Some were Army green, most were civilian white. Four minutes later, they stopped at the Nashua River. An engineering company had spent the day trying to build a bridge over the fast, cold stream. Three men failed to respond to commands after being chest deep in the water all day.

At muster tomorrow, the regiment was told that Reggie Mouton and Seth McKennever had died overnight.


This regimental team was not ready for war, and it would not be ready without at least another six months worth of training.

 

[fester]

August 14, 1940 East of Malta

Four Italian cruisers steamed triumphantly to the northeast HMS Ajax and HMS Achilles had been ambushed as they escorted a convoy to three ships into Malta. The merchant ships had escaped, but the two light cruisers stood and fought for an hour to buy their charges time. Ajax was a partial wreck. She had taken seven eight inch shells and a dozen six inch shells. One turret was opened to the sky from three decks down. Her forward engine room was an inferno two hours after the battle. Achilles was in better shape. The Italian guns were often straddling her but the patterns were too wide to harm her often. Four hits had opened her up to the sea and her pumps had barely kept ahead of the seas as her crews struggled to patch the ugly gash in her flank.

Both cruisers would have been lost until an Italian look-out saw a recently placed mine poke out of the sea. The four Italian cruisers who had only been lightly damaged by the accurate but light gunfire from the British light cruisers turned to the northeast, confident in their minor victory and sure in their ships.

Ajax arrived at the Grand Harbor with her main deck three feet above the waves. Construction and repair engineers examined her. She would be uneconomical to repair although some of her guns and equipment could be used to reinforce the island's defenses. Achilles could be repaired sufficiently to send her onto Gibraltar and then to a Royal Dockyard for a reconstruction.

 

[fester]

August 15, 1940 Fort Stotsenberg Luzon

General MacArthur looked at the forty-three hundred men of the 11th Division of the Commonwealth of the Philippines’ Army. These men had been called up two weeks earlier in a test mobilization of the Philippines Army. Washington had offered to pay the Commonwealth to mobilize a single division for three weeks and General Marshall had ordered MacArthur to authorize the mobilization.

Theoretically, the 11th Division was supposed to be able to call on 7,500 men in three infantry regiments, an artillery regiment, a scout battalion, plus supporting elements of transportation, signals, administrative and medical units. In reality, the 11th Division could muster a reinforced infantry regiment that was short of machine guns and mortars. The artillery regiment had two under strength batteries equipped with thirty year old cannon. The divisional staff should have been 250 men with thirty cars and eight trucks. The staff was seven American officers who were all at least one level of responsibility above their training, eight Filipino officers, and forty enlisted men. The command company had eleven vehicles, six of which were the private vehicles of the American officers.

As he walked through the ranks of the men who had shown up for the muster, he saw an assortment of rifles as some platoons had the Enfield rifles that was the standard shoulder arm of the army, while other platoons had Krags, and others were equipped with Spanish relics from the colonial period. The men were haphazardly dressed, some in full uniform, most in blue fatigue suits, others in their civilian clothes with green arm bands, and others in passed down uniforms from the Great War. Most men did not have helmets, and even fewer had good boots.

The men had enjoyed yesterday as they were taken to the firing ranges for the first time. Here, each personal and crew served infantry weapon was fired with a full basic load. Or at least they attempted to fire a full day’s load for each man. The Enfield rifles were frequently jamming, ammunition was not working due to damage, degradation and decay. Nothing worked, and the junior officers and NCOs were not able to solve simple problems.

The men would be released back to civilian life in another week. Four hundred men had been offered the chance to volunteer to continue their mobilization as construction and labor troops to build a mobilization camp on Philippine Army owned land near the American fort. Most had jumped at the chance for steady work that was guaranteed to pay on time. The American field marshal walked to the end of the line he was reviewing before nodding at the American colonel commanding the division as he walked rapidly to his staff car. His driver had orders to get him to Manila in time for a cocktail hour hosted by a trio of British importing factors.

 

[stubear1012]

I am disappointed in that MacArthur does not seem interested in the condition of the Republic of the Philippines' Army. However he does not seem to get in the way of the people doing their jobs. If he will let the officers and noncomnmission officers do their job then things will be better.

 

[Unknown]

MacArthur's not seeming interested in the condition of the Army sounds like him; I also hope he stays out of the way of the people doing their jobs...

 

[fester]

MacArthur's not seeming interested in the condition of the Army sounds like him; I also hope he stays out of the way of the people doing their jobs...

I'm trying to figure out how I want to write MacArthur going forward. I'm debating between him not being too concerned about what is happening in his command and him actively pissed off. Washington is actively interfering with his bailiwick for a year or more now (larger PS, more training, poaching the better American field grade officers in mid-tour, ordering/paying for a test mobilization etc) At the same time, they are not going against his general idea of a Swiss based model of militia fighting far forward and his day to day life is not actively impinged. I have a couple of ways to go and I am trying to figure out which way I want to take him.

 

[sloreck]

In some ways MacArthur here is like McClellan. Always asking for "more", complaining about Washington not giving him what he wants, and not making best use of what he has and also trying to solve problems locally. To the extent junior (and by that I mean up to the colonel level) officers can be creative that will help - as long as creativity is rewarded not ignored or even punished. Things like uniforms can be solved at least partially with local purchases/contracts. Likewise things like web gear, canteens, and so forth can be contracted locally. Obviously some items can't be made locally - but even the things that can be sourced locally need to be paid for and the Commonwealth has money to do this if released.

It would be good training for troops to test all the rifles in inventory (the Enfields at least) and the ones that don't work see if they can be fixed by getting parts from other nonfucntional rifles so at least you'll have an inventory of rifles that work and a store of adequate spare parts. As far as the Krags go, doing the same and then putting them in armories for militia use with ammunition would be reasonable. This is just an example of what could be done but will it happen...

 

[perfectgeneral]

Outraged on days he doesn't have a social engagement.

 

[Some Bloke]

MacArthur seemed to be competent enough when he didn't let his ego get in the way.

 

[fester]

MacArthur seemed to be competent enough when he didn't let his ego get in the way.

that is about where I think I want to head with my version of MacArthur. He has his priorities in the Islands and if there are other things going on that don't bother his priorities all that much, he'll let them go.

And yes, going back to Sloreck's point, motivated junior officers can get a lot done without bumping into the stars' priorities

 

[sloreck]

MacArthur seemed to be competent enough when he didn't let his ego get in the way.

I agree entirely, and it is predictable - MacArthur's ego was only in charge on days of the week that end in "y"

 

[stubear1012]

My daughter who is in the army said that senior officers like to see the soldiers march and train. She has never seen a junior officer or noncom get in trouble for training their troop. After a full day of training, they are less likely to get into trouble. She said that after 12 hours of training, the only thing she wanted was to eat and sleep. So if training keeps the soldiers out of trouble, then the generals should be happy.

 

[Crowbar Six]

In some ways MacArthur here is like McClellan. Always asking for "more", complaining about Washington not giving him what he wants, and not making best use of what he has and also trying to solve problems locally. To the extent junior (and by that I mean up to the colonel level) officers can be creative that will help - as long as creativity is rewarded not ignored or even punished. Things like uniforms can be solved at least partially with local purchases/contracts. Likewise things like web gear, canteens, and so forth can be contracted locally. Obviously some items can't be made locally - but even the things that can be sourced locally need to be paid for and the Commonwealth has money to do this if released.

It would be good training for troops to test all the rifles in inventory (the Enfields at least) and the ones that don't work see if they can be fixed by getting parts from other nonfucntional rifles so at least you'll have an inventory of rifles that work and a store of adequate spare parts. As far as the Krags go, doing the same and then putting them in armories for militia use with ammunition would be reasonable. This is just an example of what could be done but will it happen...

Ammo for the Krags must be a concern as the existing stocks can't be in terrific condition given the heat and humidity . I also doubt anyone was making it on a large scale once the US went over to the M1903 and it's unlikely to be on anyones priority production list.

My opinion of MacArthur is that the only decent job he ever did was in Japan post war, it was his sole redeeming feature. As long as he was getting his bounty for each locally raised troop he would be happy if they capered naked in the fields.

 

[perfectgeneral]

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/rifle-ammo-3040-krag
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/productlist/ammo-shooting/rifle-ammo/30-40-krag-ammo?d=121&c=96&s=968
http://store.iqmetals.com/hsm30-40krag150grgrandslam.aspx
https://www.copesdistributing.com/krag-c-45_301.html

Still widely on sale.

 

[fester]

August 17, 1940 Newport News Shipbuilding

USS Sangamon, a new fast oiler tied up fast to the dock. She had been fitted out as a fast oiler just months ago. However, the Navy decided that they needed aircraft decks more than they needed fast oilers. Sangamon and three of her recently acquired sisters were being converted into light support aircraft carriers. Over the next six months, a 502 foot flight deck would be installed, a hanger would be built and magazines would be installed. She would be fitted as an aircraft carrier capable of carrying twenty five aircraft in normal conditions or fifty aircraft as a ferry with deck cargo.

 

[fester]

August 17, 1940 Washington DC

The Army quartermaster looked at the long telegram from Manila. He had been in the army since before the Great War. He knew that his job was not glamorous. He would never attract a busty blonde to throw herself at him with lascivious intentions. He would never be the guest of honor at a Rotary Club meeting. He would never lead a ticker tape parade. However, his job was important to enable a far younger and braver man to be a hero. If that man did not have a gun, or bullets for his gun or a grenade, he would be a casualty, a pool of blood and maggot food who had failed.

The Philippines were asking for more and more from ever limited stocks. Six months ago, he could have found thirty million newly made rifle and machine gun rounds, and 100,000 60mm mortar shells without too much trouble. Emergency shipments to Britain and the rapid expansion of the Army was making it more difficult to find spare material, but he would try.

He paused as he chewed on his pencil for a moment. He needed the quiet ritual and stabilizing calm of a harmless nervous tic as everyone was asking for everything from him now. One idea flitted behind his eyes and then the realities of transportation dashed it. His secretary walked by, about to offer him coffee, but saw him entering a fugue of foggy thought and knew better so she continued down the hall. He would be caffeinated later.

Finally, the pencil came out of his mouth and a plan started to emerge.

“The depots at Rocky Flats might have some spare Denver Ordnance .30 caliber…” he leaned over his desk as he began to sketch the paths to push supplies forward to the men who would need them.

 

[fester]

August 18, 1940 San Juan Puerto Rico

Four aircraft carriers were in the American colonial port. Three were getting ready to go to sea on the next high tide. Yorktown was the temporary showcase of the Atlantic Fleet. She had come over from the Pacific Fleet just for this fleet problem. Wasp and her crew were enjoying the summer sun over the North Atlantic bone seeking and core shattering chilliness. Their mission covering the “scrap” convoy to Halifax had been productive time with plenty of flying hours but no sightings of anything more dangerous than a pod of humpback whales. Ranger was the veteran, the trial, the prototype of the American carrier fleets. Her air wing was the smallest and weakest, fighters and scout bombers only. She had been busy in Florida operating as a training platform for the new cohorts and cadres that President Roosevelt and Congress had asked for the Navy to provide since the start of the European war. The first of the new trainees were getting ready to join the fleet as nuggets and they had become familiar with Rangers’s deck.

Seven cruisers and two dozen destroyers were almost ready to join the carriers. They would be ready to steam hard and learn even harder.

Off in the corner of the harbor laid Bearn. Her condenser was fixed but her captain was reluctant to take her to sea. Wasp’s Captain Reeves and her chief engineer had been invited aboard Bearn for a tour and dinner. The two men were horrified at the condition of the ship. It was cramped, it was dank and it was rank. There was little to recommend in her construction for naval architects. Most of the ship’s design decisions were mistakes already made with Langley and Lexington as well as mistakes that the British made with Argus, Eagle and Hermes. Bearn was a third rate ship albeit with a first rate chef and a second rate sommelier. The one positive from that dinner was a continuation of the discussion for the aircraft that she was transporting. It seemed likely that the fifty American built planes would eventually be sold back to the United States at list price and then they could either be transferred back to the Navy as it needed more dive bombers, or sent forward to the British. The financial transfers would be complicated as the British wished to pay in Sterling and the Marine Nationale wanted either gold or dollars, but something could be arranged.