What would happen if Rommel succeds in North Africa then meets up with supplies and reinforcements in southern Russia and proceeds to India what will happen?
Nazis Invade India
- Thread starter ConfederateFly
- Start date
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
???
Exactly how would he get to India? Check a map, you'll find India is pretty freakin' far from Libya.
ConfederateFly said:
Exactly how would he get to India? Check a map, you'll find India is pretty freakin' far from Libya.
Chris
Banned
Be sensible.
Rommel would need far more support from Hitler, effectivly postponing Barbarossa for a year, but it could be done. Rommel pushes over Suez and provokes revolts in Iraq and Iran, both of which join the axis. Itaians get the honor of pushing down into africa. Germans push forward into India from Iran.
Chris
Rommel would need far more support from Hitler, effectivly postponing Barbarossa for a year, but it could be done. Rommel pushes over Suez and provokes revolts in Iraq and Iran, both of which join the axis. Itaians get the honor of pushing down into africa. Germans push forward into India from Iran.
Chris
Chris said:
I think the plan was the other way 'round: German troops secure Egypt, then wait in place until Barbarossa cores and quarters the Soviet Union and joins up with the Wehrmacht troops moving down the Caucasus to Iran. THe expectation was that Iran could be moved at least to a friendly neutrality while the Arab puppet regimes would support the Germans after British control was removed. Then, the Heeresgruppe Sued and the Afrikakorps could cross the Hindukush to meet their Japanese allies for the handshake in Delhi.
Mind you, he was a megalomaniac. But I guess on a map it looks feasible.
Max Sinister
Banned
It would take a lot of time, the German troops would suffer from overstretching and long support ways, and you could never know whether Stalin would feel threatened / see the opportunity and attack first.
Besides, Hitler wanted to bring down Russia first.
Besides, Hitler wanted to bring down Russia first.
While I agree it was feasible on a map and Hitler's long-term plans were to link up with the Japanese in India, there are some problems with this.
- Hitler's main territorial desires lay in the conquest of Russia, so Barbarossa got most of the men & material.
- Japan was more focussed on subduing China and holding their gains in the Pacific. Remember, they kept hoping for a negotiated settlement with the Allies. They did launch one attempt at invading India, but it was a complete disaster.
- The British would throw everything they had into defending India, its "Jewel in the Crown".
- While gaining the oil-rich Middle East would ease some of the strain off of Germany's war production, remember the economy was never put on a proper war function.
- Sooner or later, Germany would outrun it's supply lines. It had no real surface fleet or any real type of supply fleet. Even with the Suez under their control, they didn't have enough ships or transports to resupply an invasion of India.
Larrikin
Banned
North Africa
People tend to forget two things when they are talking about a massive German push through North Africa.
1. The Italian merchant fleet was reduced in size by a significant amount when Big Benny declared war, because lots of it was out of the Med and very promptly interned, therefore it would have struggled to provide the ship tonnage need to supply a bigger effort
2. There is a natural unflankable defensive position in Egypt, it was the site of the Alamein battles. If the Brits fort that up early on (mid 41) they aren't pissing away troops and materiel in mobile battles, but rather the Germans are having to frontally assault the best defensive troops in the world in dug in pre-prepared positions. Remember that Winnie was reading Adolf's mail, and all those tanks, planes etc that were sent to Russia, or retained in England, would have gone to the ME, along with guns, troops, etc. Blitzkreig would not have worked, and so the whole point becomes moot.
People tend to forget that if major changes happen in one place, they tend to get matched by major changes in others.
People tend to forget two things when they are talking about a massive German push through North Africa.
1. The Italian merchant fleet was reduced in size by a significant amount when Big Benny declared war, because lots of it was out of the Med and very promptly interned, therefore it would have struggled to provide the ship tonnage need to supply a bigger effort
2. There is a natural unflankable defensive position in Egypt, it was the site of the Alamein battles. If the Brits fort that up early on (mid 41) they aren't pissing away troops and materiel in mobile battles, but rather the Germans are having to frontally assault the best defensive troops in the world in dug in pre-prepared positions. Remember that Winnie was reading Adolf's mail, and all those tanks, planes etc that were sent to Russia, or retained in England, would have gone to the ME, along with guns, troops, etc. Blitzkreig would not have worked, and so the whole point becomes moot.
People tend to forget that if major changes happen in one place, they tend to get matched by major changes in others.
I think bumping old threads is fine if one has an actual substantive contribution to make (or maybe making a new thread and linking to the old[er] ones) but yeah, one line bumps are bad™.
As for the premise I always liked the Turtledove story where the Nazi's are running India and Gandhi just gets shot because peaceful non-resistance only works against someone unwilling to shoot. Although he writes good stories and one-off novels, he should never write series.
I think the logistical problems are huge (even without Barbarossa) and may in fact require Turkey to be Axis for the rail line.
I'm assuming SuperHitler of course, the one where he puts the economy on a war footing and isn't insane. Even then, its iffy.
As for the premise I always liked the Turtledove story where the Nazi's are running India and Gandhi just gets shot because peaceful non-resistance only works against someone unwilling to shoot. Although he writes good stories and one-off novels, he should never write series.
I think the logistical problems are huge (even without Barbarossa) and may in fact require Turkey to be Axis for the rail line.
I'm assuming SuperHitler of course, the one where he puts the economy on a war footing and isn't insane. Even then, its iffy.
I think the war would be over long before the Nazis reach India:
If they attack Russia, the same would happen as OTL.
If they do not attack Russia (which would require a significantly different Hitler, yet no implausible TL) but concentrate on the "mediterranean strategy", they might conquer Suez and the Arabian countries, and then the war with Britain should be over. The Suez channel was significant for the Empire, and ITTL the Germans would not only have the channel but also more than enoguh supplies.
In this case Turkey wouldn't necessarily be Axis. Even a neutral country can agree to let oil transports of a country that controls pretty much all neighbouring countries besides that communist state cross.
Unfortunately the supply line in Africa could only take 4 divisions. Making any support of main push via Libya practically impossible. Even once Egypt is seized the problems are legion.
The Sinai will have to be crossed, or shipping into Syria arranged. These forces will then have to cross a large desert into Mesopotamia. Before going against the supply grain into mountains into Iran.
Rommel might have a panzer corps poised on the eastern Iranian border just in time to join the first India-Pakistan war.
For the Germans to get to India, it would also require a more substantial effort by the Japanese, meaning that the resources they would have used to attack the United STates would be used against Britain instead. Without a war with the US to worry about, the Japanese could conceivably mount a strong thrust into eastern India, with the German's pushing west.
So if both Germany and Japan committed their a greater deal of their resources into attacking India, then if they are really lucky, they could do it. Again, it would also require a mass-uprising against the British by both the Arabs and the Indians.
Of course, there's the problem of the Soviets invading Germany should the Germans hold off on Barbarossa, but that's a whole different thread.
So if both Germany and Japan committed their a greater deal of their resources into attacking India, then if they are really lucky, they could do it. Again, it would also require a mass-uprising against the British by both the Arabs and the Indians.
Of course, there's the problem of the Soviets invading Germany should the Germans hold off on Barbarossa, but that's a whole different thread.
With Egypt seized, they would also have to clear the British from the Med, whcih would take a while, possibly. An alternative might be the 'Fuhrer versus Abdul' scenario, with Germany invading or forcing an alliance with Turkey, and going after India from that route. However I think Stalin would react to that. In fact the Soviets would think a German attack on India was a dream come true - a substantial number of divisions at the end of a very long supply line a long way from Russia's centre. They could invade into Persia or Turkey and chop up the Germans, or simply go straight for Berlin.