Because its political system was so incredibly unsustainable. By early 18th century PLC just became ineffective nation which was easy to kick around by its neighbors.
What civilization or nation deserves to have its own TL?
- Thread starter Acamapichtli
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Because its political system was so incredibly unsustainable. By early 18th century PLC just became ineffective nation which was easy to kick around by its neighbors.
Others might have mentioned these already, but here we go: Scythians, Sarmatians and Alans (I know, Alans are a Sarmatian group, I put them seperately because they are better recorded) because i find them so cool.
Huns, it would be fascinating to see their survival past the 5th-6th centuries and their cultural interactions with their Germanic neighburs.
Surviving Tecumseh's confederacy, a Native state survivng in the Americas would be Facsinating.
Gauls and other continental Celts.
Assyrians.
Huns, it would be fascinating to see their survival past the 5th-6th centuries and their cultural interactions with their Germanic neighburs.
Surviving Tecumseh's confederacy, a Native state survivng in the Americas would be Facsinating.
Gauls and other continental Celts.
Assyrians.
That's the point of alternate history: it doesn't have to be that way. It could have survived all the way up until the partitions, and I would argue even after the first partition. Ironically, Sweden winning the Great Northern War would have been better for Poland than otl's outcome.
Determinism isn't always a bad thing - there are some alternate worlds like say the Germans winning the Second World War that are also very unlikely (because, yes), but also very negative for the vast proportion of humanity. Sticking by a "because it failed" isn't as negative a statement for them as it would be with other societies.
To me it depends on how many layers of change you need to impose on a system in-order to make something survive, thrive or fail. Poland-Lithuania is fascinating, but part of the reason why it is fascinating is because the state is constitutionally a bit bonkers and might not be as interesting to people if it was 'fixed' to survive as it is because of the quirks that ensured its failure. If we are going to apply the layers of change theory to Poland-Lithuania, then how many degrees of change do we need to apply for them to make it? Quite a few. I agree, @Flavius Iulius Maiorianus, Sweden succeeding in the Great Northern War would be good for Poland, but then if we are rethinking things, hasn't the problems that doomed the PLC already manifested and doesn't that need to be addressed? Do we even need to have a union of Poland and Lithuania given that these are two different but related cultures? We talk a fair amount about Scotland and Ireland avoiding the UK (I don't know how to phrase that in a more politically neutral way), perhaps there is no union and therefore Poland is able to focus on itself, further away from Russia and survives and Lithuania is closer to Russia and doesn't?
Whatever the case, I do think this has to be earlier than the terrible trio and contemporaries Peter the Great, Frederick II and Maria Theresa to give them the best possible chance, I think the POD has to be 16th or first half of the 17th century, when a lot of other countries are going through state-building institutional journeys to give them time so that when these hugely important figures appear on the scene, they are actually in a good place to sustain themselves going forward.
To me it depends on how many layers of change you need to impose on a system in-order to make something survive, thrive or fail. Poland-Lithuania is fascinating, but part of the reason why it is fascinating is because the state is constitutionally a bit bonkers and might not be as interesting to people if it was 'fixed' to survive as it is because of the quirks that ensured its failure. If we are going to apply the layers of change theory to Poland-Lithuania, then how many degrees of change do we need to apply for them to make it? Quite a few. I agree, @Flavius Iulius Maiorianus, Sweden succeeding in the Great Northern War would be good for Poland, but then if we are rethinking things, hasn't the problems that doomed the PLC already manifested and doesn't that need to be addressed? Do we even need to have a union of Poland and Lithuania given that these are two different but related cultures? We talk a fair amount about Scotland and Ireland avoiding the UK (I don't know how to phrase that in a more politically neutral way), perhaps there is no union and therefore Poland is able to focus on itself, further away from Russia and survives and Lithuania is closer to Russia and doesn't?
Whatever the case, I do think this has to be earlier than the terrible trio and contemporaries Peter the Great, Frederick II and Maria Theresa to give them the best possible chance, I think the POD has to be 16th or first half of the 17th century, when a lot of other countries are going through state-building institutional journeys to give them time so that when these hugely important figures appear on the scene, they are actually in a good place to sustain themselves going forward.
I agree with this. In some cases, determinism is justified, such as World War II or the American Civil War.
To explain my point about the Great Northern War a bit more, the Polish king supported by Sweden actually wrote a document in OTL about the reforms he wanted to make to the Commonwealth. I agree that an earlier PoD is better, but I don't think it's strictly necessary.
Deserves got nothing to do with it. If you want a TL written about a nation or civilization write it yourself. Don't let your dreams be dreams.
If people spent as much time writing TLs on obscure places and times as they spend wishing for TLs to be written, there would be a lot more TLs.
If people spent as much time writing TLs on obscure places and times as they spend wishing for TLs to be written, there would be a lot more TLs.
No, it absolutely has to be that way if Poland is ruled as an "Commonwealth". Any reforms which could improve Poland-Lithuania's situation would cause this state to cease to be "Commonwealth".
That is simply not true; see the numerous reforms proposed during the 18th century.
It was too late, and most of them were dud programmes which would not repair anything, like those presented during the sejm of 1744, when most of nobility theoretically supported auction of army, the problem is they believed that projects which were intentionally designed to fail are good solutions to the problem, and even backed off from this when Prussians began spreading pamphlets saying "hurr durr this is absolutism, absolutism bad, Frederick II is an ally of Poland and protector of freedom". PLC didn't make any sense since the beginning and was very lucky state.
If it was such an ineffective state, then why did Russia not beat the PLC in a war until a century after it formed, and only then because Sweden was also invading and they had a devastating uprising? Why were they able to intervene against the Ottomans in 1683 and actively participate in the Great Turkish War?
Shittons of luck + being more populous, richer and larger than it's neighbours and even in 1574, Ivan IV took Livonia with almost no resistance which won't be possible unless for one of PLC's constiutive principles - free election and mandatory interregnum which enabled Ivan to act.
I remember learning about it in EdT’s “The Bloody Man,” fascinating stuff.
Beatriz
Gone Fishin'
@Leonidas
The global Republic unifying most of the world* after general nuclear war from the less damaged parts of Australia, S. America and so on_ the only sources would be Global Republic sources etc. like the podcast Within the Wires which has a similar govt. all character names will be given in Standard, the only referent foreign language.
It is the job of the reader to piece together understanding of history
*excluding those areas to designated clients
The global Republic unifying most of the world* after general nuclear war from the less damaged parts of Australia, S. America and so on_ the only sources would be Global Republic sources etc. like the podcast Within the Wires which has a similar govt. all character names will be given in Standard, the only referent foreign language.
It is the job of the reader to piece together understanding of history
*excluding those areas to designated clients
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Either a two/three Italies thing (say North, Papal and South) or someone else that isn't Piedmont-Savoy unifying Italy. It's not something I know enough about to do it myself, but it would be be cool.
There were a couple of dead TLs about Scandinavians that I would really like to see return someday
I think it would be an interesting TL would focus on one of the price-bishoprics that existed in the HRE with a POD in the late medieval period. Something along the lines of acquiring small amounts of profitable territories through the years, creating a sort of "Papal State of the North", while of course providing His Holiness proper submission and Peter's Pence. As this state's temporal power and influence grows, it becomes a nexus of conflict that leads to an ATL Protestant Reformation.
I think the Huns could work if they pull a Hungary and settle the Pannonian plain.
the Assyrians are very cool too, but they kind of have to take over Iraq or they're going to be a minority. The other way to go with it is that the Assyrians migrate somewhere that would allow them to survive as a group.
I think he is referimg to the assyrian empire, honestly I think they are very fascinating if only for the extreme cruelty they show, I remember one tl i'm wich they survive by defiting nabopolossar but I think it's dead
Also intersting would be intersting a achemenid tl I mean for all the importante they had in history the if they appear in a story almost always is in an Alexander tl
There's quite a few interesting TLs with content about sub-Saharan Africa in the Cold War period? But yeah definitely an underserved region in Before-1900.