On that note, we could have the trauma caused by the Thirty Years War, with how up to a third of the HRE's population was killed in the war, be cited as the reason why Germany ended up the way it did similar to how people have blamed the Tatar-Mongol Yoke for many of the percieved afflictions and differences from Western Europe that Russia possessed in past centuries or currently has.
The Anglo/American - Nazi War - The on-going mystery
- Thread starter CalBear
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Oh yeah, I could see a Tatar Yoke/"Eastern Institutioins" thing with Germans ittl.
Maybe the idea of Norman Yoke would get totally reversed and seen as having saved England (and rest of A4) from German Institutions, at least in some fringe circles (like Norman Yoke itself).
So basically, the historiography of Prussia/Germany would go something like this: Prussia had to build a massive and well-funded army to defend itself against the European powers treating the German states, but that culture of militarism eventually created a culture of hypermasculinity and jingoism that ultimately culminated in a figure like Adolf Hitler.
I think such historians would also focus on the not-nice behavior of a lot of Prussia/German rulers: Frederick William beheading his son's friend/lover in front of him, Frederick the Great's antagonism toward Austria and partition of Poland, and Kaiser Wilhelm's capricious megalomania to make the argument of Germany's "unique" capacity for madness.
But wouldn't historians also contextualize that many of Hitler's "inspirations" came from the world around him?
Would people make comparisons between France's subjugation of Algeria, America's legal racial caste system, Belgium's violent looting of its African colonies, and the acceptability of eugenics as a mainstream science? Racism TTL has become even more heavily discredited and so wouldn't people probably study the abuses of racial minorities and how it molded the mind of the Nazis?
Very true. And don't forgot Von Bismarck's very authotarian regime which attempted to screw worker class and his anti-Catholic Kulturkampf. Furthermore he waged lot of wars on time when Europe was generally quite peaceful. And yet there is genocides in Namibia.
They hardly ignore such thing like "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" created by Okhrana but Hitler would be seen as ultimate result of Prussian militarism and German antisemitism. Antisemitism was already rising before rise of Hitler and kaiser Wilhelm II didn't too liked Jews very much altough probably even he would had hated Holocaust. And even before rise of Prussia there was lot of antisemitism in Germany. Yes, it was norm everywhere. But historians would too point several antisemitist pogroms through Middle Ages speciality during epidemics and famines and Martin Luther's own antisemitic views altough I don't know was he particularly more antisemitist than many other people in 16th century.
Probably in some degree but not outright pointing finger their crimes. People are pretty good close their eyes from crimes of other nations.
While many people call Bismarck a brilliant chess master, others have pointed out that his wars of expansion were a reckless ideological campaign that could have had disastrous consequences. An example of this is when Bismarck did get his war against Austria, he apparently had to threaten suicide to get the Prussian King, Wilhelm I, not to brutalize the Austrians too much.
And let's not forget he created a political system that he eventually lost control over once Wilhelm II came to power.
While there are lot of nice things you can say about Bismarck, he was not the invincible chessmaster a lot of people make him out to be.
The fact that the German man who wanted to be more Christian than the Catholic Church was also a mouth-foaming antisemite will not leave TTL historians with a good impression of Germany. Even Luther, a man with good intentions, still had horrible instincts and should be a reminder that we should never lionize figures of history.
The problem is that for several generations of people, the image of Germany is a bunch of maniacs committing insane crimes against humanity. While horrors like Jim Crow for America and Indian famines for the British are bad, they pale in comparison to Nazis completely leveling entire cultures.
Number 1 with extreme prejudice. In OTL, Heer generals like Manstein and Spiedel were spared because West Germany needed experienced commanders. Here, it's safe to assume that all Nazis or even Heer generals would be executed by hanging or firing squad. There won't be a "Good Heer" myth.
I wonder what TTL historians would think if they looked at OTL history and saw how so many war criminals got away with being labeled "innocent patriots."
Probably bit depends case by case but indeed there is not "good Wehrmacth" myth. Most generals who have commited serious war crimes and participated to genocides are without any doubt hanged. But some could survive with life sentence or very long prisonment as long as they haven't been participated to worst of crimes. IIRC Rommel got life sentence instead death penalty only because he treated slaves bit betterly than many others. A4 whilst pretty harsh them have too some idea about justice.
If a portal to OTL and the ANNW exists, they would shake their heads in disgust. Or the fact how the U.S. and the Allies allowed some war criminals some leniency all in the name of the Cold War with the Soviets. It would show that our world (and yes this is a sad reality) would be willing to let war criminals get away in terms of geopolitical benefits.
In this ATL, more Japanese war criminals were persecuted because there is no Cold War, PRC, and North Korea. So I would imagine the likes of Shiro Ishii, Masonabu Tsuji, and Dr. Hisato Yoshimura would have gotten the noose. In OTL, all three Japanese war criminals escapred justice. Ishii and Yoshimura continued to practice medicine in post-war Japan and Tsuji became a CIA-asset (translation: liability) after he would often play both the U.S. bloc and the Asian communists against each other. It became to the point that Tsuji was described as a "man who would no doubt start WWIII should it benefit him". He was imprisoned by the Chinese communists in 1948 but was alleged to have scored a deal with the CCP to undermine the U.S.-Japan post war alliance and relations. He even ran for politics in 1952 before disappearing into Laos in 1961. It was there he was alleged to have joined the Pathet Lao or became an advisor to the North Vietnamese Army. He was declared dead in 1968 after 7 years of no show. Some say the CIA had him liquidated.
As for Rommel, there won't be romanticization of him either. Not sure if he'll still be respect post-war though.
Probably Rommel is not that famous general as in OTL since no North African campaign. But yes, he is not indeed that lionised as in OTL. Not reason for that.
The issue with the AANW is this: Nazism was a twelve-year threat that was wiped out with a (relatively) happy ending for some. It was a horror that lasted a generation and left deep scars on the world that will never heal. From little Billy Johnson from Wichita, whose uncle died in combat in 1959, to the millions of Russians who never got to be born, no part of the world was left unscathed.
Perhaps the Wehrmacht's loyalty to the nation and devotion to combat would almost be admirable under far different circumstances. Worthy opponents is quite true to a lot of history.
But the Wehrmacht victory, in this case, had disastrous consequences for humanity, and many of those good generals happily took part in the plunder and massacre of millions of people, took part in jingoistic oppression, took part in slave labor, and took part in keeping the war going for way too long.
The average Wehrmacht's soldier's "bravery" comes across as painfully tragic since the once-beloved traditions of duty and nationalism became tools for PURE EVIL. Even more so than we do, people TTL will wonder how otherwise noble people could be participants in such barbarity.
OTL, the average psychologist who interviews war criminals, was disturbed by how...normal they were. A lot of them didn't help with mental disorders. They were manipulated into just...not caring about anything but their country. TTL, it must be an even more soul-crushing experience to interview a soldier who trashed Paris and see that he's a perfectly normal person who could've had a beer.