Short Stirling used as Maritime Patrol Aircraft for Battle of Atlantic?

[jlckansas]

Losing the Dorsal Turret gives you room for an extra navigator/radar operator.

It also give you a place to mount the ASV radar closer to where the person watching the radar is to prevent having feed line and other problems. Yes I know the turret is on top of the plane but the ASV radar doesn't take that much space up so you can mount it close to where the turret is on the underside and use the existing electrical that would power the turret to be used without having to run new wiring.

 

[sonofpegasus]

Early ASV sets had aerials on the top and side of the fuselage.

As seen above, OTL ASV mark 1 entered service in Early 1940, the Mark II in 1941. The Leigh Light could have been in service almost a year earlier than OTL if there had not been bureaucratic inertia and down right obstruction. So for our ATL Sterling LRMPA it could be possible to have both ASV 1 and Leigh Light in early 1941.

 

[pdf27]

I'm sure I've seen a reference somewhere to a Short Stirling being modified in Rochester at Short Brothers to take the Flight Refuelling style looped hose refuelling rig. It was destroyed by bombing while still incomplete in 1940 so never tested, and would never have been practicable for Bomber Command anyway.
However, if the Stirling becomes an MPA then when the "Black Gap" starts to become a thing I'd be a bit surprised if they didn't dust off the inflight refuelling plans and try them out. Even one or two aircraft capable of reaching the convoys would have made a huge difference by forcing submarines down and so making it far easier for a convoy to break contact.

 

[PMN1]

I'm sure I've seen a reference somewhere to a Short Stirling being modified in Rochester at Short Brothers to take the Flight Refuelling style looped hose refuelling rig. It was destroyed by bombing while still incomplete in 1940 so never tested, and would never have been practicable for Bomber Command anyway.
However, if the Stirling becomes an MPA then when the "Black Gap" starts to become a thing I'd be a bit surprised if they didn't dust off the inflight refuelling plans and try them out. Even one or two aircraft capable of reaching the convoys would have made a huge difference by forcing submarines down and so making it far easier for a convoy to break contact.

I've seen it suggested that problem of the two aircraft meeting up at the right time in the right place, failure to do so being a bad thing to happen......but that shouldn't stop the tanker following the LRMP out and refueling it at a certain time.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

I've seen it suggested that problem of the two aircraft meeting up at the right time in the right place, failure to do so being a bad thing to happen......but that shouldn't stop the tanker following the LRMP out and refueling it at a certain time.

As I understand it, even refuelling after taking off and climbing to cruise altitude could make quite a difference to endurance.

 

[El Pip]

As I understand it, even refuelling after taking off and climbing to cruise altitude could make quite a difference to endurance.

For the Stirling it would be helpful but nothing incredible. Short Stirling pilot notes say it carried 2,254 gallons standard and burns about 300 gallons getting up to altitude, so you do use a bit over 10% of the fuel just getting to altitude.

The same notes say that at minimum boost/rpm at 15,000ft the aircraft burnt 160 gallons/hour So refuelling would get you ~2hr extra flight time, could be a lot less if you want to do anything other than cruise at minimum speed.

 

[ArtosStark]

For the Stirling it would be helpful but nothing incredible. Short Stirling pilot notes say it carried 2,254 gallons standard and burns about 300 gallons getting up to altitude, so you do use a bit over 10% of the fuel just getting to altitude.

The cruise altitude for a LRMPA would be considerably less than that of a bomber however. And IIRC the Stirling was a better climber lower down, which would increase the benefit.

 

[El Pip]

The cruise altitude for a LRMPA would be considerably less than that of a bomber however. And IIRC the Stirling was a better climber lower down, which would increase the benefit.

If it's 5,000 ft (purely because that's one of the set number in the pilots notes) then it's only 50 gallons of fuel used in the climb, which is probably not worth the fuss of refuelling.

The transport/tug Mk.IV and .V versions were about 3,700lb lighter than the bombers when empty (important as the Stirling was over-weight in bomber form) and 10mph faster due to the lower drag. On that basis the easiest way to get longer range is removing the dorsal and nose turrets and then plating over the gaps, a quicker job that fitting an aircraft for refuelling and no need to train the crew in refuelling or find extra aircraft to act as tankers.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

The transport/tug Mk.IV and .V versions were about 3,700lb lighter than the bombers when empty (important as the Stirling was over-weight in bomber form) and 10mph faster due to the lower drag. On that basis the easiest way to get longer range is removing the dorsal and nose turrets and then plating over the gaps, a quicker job that fitting an aircraft for refuelling and no need to train the crew in refuelling or find extra aircraft to act as tankers.

So something like this (original drawing from Shipbucket, authors as shown)

 

[sonofpegasus]

The Early version would have the Stickleback arial system as mentioned in my earlier post.
In the PAM time line I went all in with the original 112ft wingspan of the Sterling and four 2000hp plus Fairy Monarch engines !!

 

[Salamander]

For your consideration: with a Sterling LRMPA having fixed, forward-firing guns instead of a nose turret (I recommend 4 x 20mm Hispano-Suizas), could we be faced the possibility of aerial duels between Short Sterlings and Focke-Wulf Fw200 Condors?

 

[CaptainCalvert]

For your consideration: with a Sterling LRMPA having fixed, forward-firing guns instead of a nose turret (I recommend 4 x 20mm Hispano-Suizas), could we be faced the possibility of aerial duels between Short Sterlings and Focke-Wulf Fw200 Condors?

I can't see the FW doing too well against 4x20mm if the Stirling does a sedate form of boom and zoom.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I can't see the FW doing too well against 4x20mm if the Stirling does a sedate form of boom and zoom.

The Stirling was also fairly nimble for an aircraft of its size. On the other hand the Condor was a fragile beast known to snap in two from a rough landing. It's not going to do well twisting and turning.

 

[jlckansas]

Two or 4 20mm Hispanos also does good for an attack on a surfaced Uboat. If you get some hits on the ballast tanks, especially from one side, you cause both trim problems and problems with diving and surfacing the boat. Keeping the crew's heads down if they start having AA guns onboard also helps. Want something with more punch put something like a Vickers K gun in the nose. 40mm AP rounds might cause some hull problems also on the run in to drop depthcharges.

 

[yulzari1]

Two or 4 20mm Hispanos also does good for an attack on a surfaced Uboat. If you get some hits on the ballast tanks, especially from one side, you cause both trim problems and problems with diving and surfacing the boat. Keeping the crew's heads down if they start having AA guns onboard also helps. Want something with more punch put something like a Vickers K gun in the nose. 40mm AP rounds might cause some hull problems also on the run in to drop depthcharges.

S Gun rather than K but yes. Bristol tried putting an S Gun front turret on a B17 for Coastal Command but the structure was not up to the job IIRC.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

S Gun rather than K but yes. Bristol tried putting an S Gun front turret on a B17 for Coastal Command but the structure was not up to the job IIRC.

You really need the Tsetse's 6 pounder to be sure of poking holes in the hull, though 40mm could well give the sub a very bad day.

 

[Salamander]

Two or 4 20mm Hispanos also does good for an attack on a surfaced Uboat. If you get some hits on the ballast tanks, especially from one side, you cause both trim problems and problems with diving and surfacing the boat. Keeping the crew's heads down if they start having AA guns onboard also helps. Want something with more punch put something like a Vickers K gun in the nose. 40mm AP rounds might cause some hull problems also on the run in to drop depthcharges.

S Gun rather than K but yes. Bristol tried putting an S Gun front turret on a B17 for Coastal Command but the structure was not up to the job IIRC.

You really need the Tsetse's 6 pounder to be sure of poking holes in the hull, though 40mm could well give the sub a very bad day.

The nose of the Sterling does seem to be a good candidate for a combination of both the QF 6-pdr Class M Mark I with Auto Loader Mk III, aka Mollins Gun, and 20mm Hispano-Suizas facing forward. With the addition of RP-3 (Rocket Projectile 3 inch) to the mix as well, then any U-boat would have a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.


For further consideration: What if they modified a Sterling or 12 into a variant that has a similar role to that of the AC- 130?

 

[Gunnarnz]

For further consideration: What if they modified a Sterling or 12 into a variant that has a similar role to that of the AC- 130?

Bad idea. Gunships like that can only be used against opponents with no realistic chance of shooting back at them - they're what the US uses to say "we're not even taking you seriously any more". Against a Me-109 or Wirbelwind flakpanzer, they're nothing but an entire crew's worth of "sad duty to inform you" letters waiting to happen.

 

[Salamander]

Bad idea. Gunships like that can only be used against opponents with no realistic chance of shooting back at them - they're what the US uses to say "we're not even taking you seriously any more". Against a Me-109 or Wirbelwind flakpanzer, they're nothing but an entire crew's worth of "sad duty to inform you" letters waiting to happen.

But there are all those pesky post-war colonial bush wars and confrontations where they'd come in handy...

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

But there are all those pesky post-war colonial bush wars and confrontations where they'd come in handy...

A squadron of Lincoln's carpet bombing the Malayan Jungle is so much more intimidating to the ten hostiles in the square mile you're turning into matchsticks.