On the topic of Nazi victory maps…

[DrakonFin]

There were only two countries that the Nazis tolerated giving any territorial promises to about the conquered Soviet territories (that was their Lebensraum after all, so Hitler didn't feel like sharing it with anyone): Romania and Finland. Both had major grievances with the Soviets after being forced to give up part of their own countries (and the Romanians needed to be compensated for the loss of North Transylvania to Hungary in the Second Vienna Award), and would therefore be anxious to side with the Germans. The Finns were extremely vital to the German war effort because of their contribution to the conflict with the Soviet Union, so the Germans generally did whatever they could to keep them in the fight. I've heard the promises referred to by someone as including Karelia, the Kola peninsula, Murmansk, some land east of Lake Onega and "even more" (whatever that means). But as Frige just stated, the Germans seem to have wanted the Kola peninsula for themselves, so I'm waiting for confirmation on that.

In 1940, during the Winter War when Göring proposed to Finland making peace with "any terms" that would preserve the army to fight another day, promising support in an eventual revenge against the USSR, he asked the Finns what kind of borders they would want. When the Finns indicated Kola as well as Eastern Karelia as a areas of "old Finnish settlement", Göring said that the question of Kola is dependent on "economic discussions".

This, I think, is the key. To Germany Kola is merely an economic point, whereas Finland considers the area as a part of a viable Greater Finland also in an ideological sense. That is not to say Finland would figtht tooth and nail for the area, but it means that the Finnish government is ready to go to some lenghts to receive the peninsula.

Economically, Germany can make Finland to grand far-reaching concessions in the area. In mining, specifically. German industry in the north does not require German troops there. Rather to the contrary, if the Finns hold the area, they free up German occupation forces for potentially more restless areas of the former USSR. The resources extracted from the peninsula will, nevertheless, move towards Central Europe through the Finnish rail network, so even in terms of smooth logistics a Reich enclave in the north would rather make things more complicated.

Because of these points, I have thought Kola would be politically and militarily Finnish, but economically factually a German colony. I see it as the most logical outcome.

But then again, there is not always logic where there are Nazis...

 

[Max Sinister]

Maybe they name the new Gaue simply after their capital cities. In the case of the Netherlands: Better don't remind people that their country had a history before the nazi conquest.

 

[WeissRaben]

...mh, I wouldn't worry about the Italian politicians, though. If I were Germany, I'd worry about Italy itself. Fascist rule would last VERY little, and...weell...I don't know. I can see large scale revolts in Milan, Naples ( 8D ), Rome and just about every big city; would they be able to overthrow Mussolini, well, France could as well give it a shot. Take the USA into account, and Russia and Britain if the nazi government ends up being quite heavy, and...well. The Third Reich isn't gonna last one thousand years.

 

[Morgan Hauser]

In regards to Italy do recall that unlike many other German allies it sent a great deal of manpower and support to Germany. Italian fought from Africa to the Balkans to Russia. Yes they have this current image of almost romantic bumbling key stone cops, but they had a navy, airforce, industry, and its government was in full support of the Axis.

So post-Hitler I can see little areas in the Balkans becoming more German controlled, but even than I do not see Germany cutting out big chunks of Italy.

Recall Hitler spent a lot of resources to support Italy, as well as conduction a very difficult operation to free Mussolini.

I’m not trying to exaggerate Italy’s military ineptitude now, but probably nobody would disagree with me that they were more of a burden than a help to the German war effort. First by dragging them into a unnecessary conflict in the Mediterranean and North Africa, and then forcing the Wehrmacht to intervene militarily in the Balkans after the botched attack on Greece (although they did provide Germany with a viable route to the Middle East, and the Yugoslavian coup was a separate event, respectively).

I’ve long been of the opinion that Germany was the only “true” Axis power from beginning to end. Not to overstate its military or economic might, but it did form the lynchpin of the entire alliance (and therefore became the target of the Allies’ “Europe first” strategy). Countries like Italy and Japan would likely have been much less territorially aggressive if not for Germany to back them up against much more powerful neighbours (Japan against the US especially).

But okay, I do have to admit that Italy most likely wouldn't be forced to give up all of its pretensions of empire, at least under Hitler. That would mean then that the historical formation of the Operational Zones in Tyrol and the Adriatic Littoral were just a result of the 1943 “betrayal” of Italy.

 

[Morgan Hauser]

"Sorry, but Himmler is currently unavailable. Please leave a message after the FBI wiretaps your phone."
Anyways, clearly proof that the Nazis were a bunch of weirdos. And to think they were anywhere close to becoming a superpower...

Oh trust me, nobody is disputing that. Megalomania certainly wasn’t in short supply either, especially with Hitler and Himmler. The whole system of Nazism is self-destructive down to its very core, so the only real way to turn Germany into a superpower is to change its fundamental nature. And the movement is so inextricably linked to that of its leader that you might as well just call it Hitlerism instead. It’s indeed hard to imagine a Nazi Germany without him.

I might work on one of these myself. I'll make it more fancy, might include a topographical map...

Come to think of it, it might be a neat idea of I included a small city map of Germania as well.

 

[Morgan Hauser]

Wikipedia says the name Moscow is based on the word bear, and they'd never lie!

Where does it say that? According to what I'm reading it was named after the local river "Moskva" that flows through it.

There's only so many options, though. I can imagine some bureaucrat in the late 1940s of a Nazis Win TL staring at a map of European Russia and randomly renaming villages after his neighbors.

So that’s where “Theodorichshafen” came from. And I thought it was derived from the ancient Ostrogothic king.

Well, there is precedent for the Nazis ignoring the natural center of government - look at where the RK Ukraine was governed from. You might see Tula or something made into the capital of RK Moskau.

I’d say those actions (Rowno instead of Kiev, Krakow instead of Warsaw) were done more for security reasons, rather than just as intentional contempt for the old institutions.

Alternatively, heavy decentralization with the districts of RK Moskau answering directly to Berlin and the city of Moscow reduced to a provincial capital.

Don't really see that happening as long as the RKs aren't yet dissolved and directly incorporated into Germany as new reichsgaue. But then again, the respective Reichskommissars who made their headquarters in their RK's capitals (all of whom were also Gauleiters in Germany itself) did answer directly to Hitler, instead of through Rosenfeld's official ministry for the occupied territories, so there is a precedent for it.

 

[Morgan Hauser]

Nice, but weren't the north sea called Germanic Ocean by the Nazis or was that just propaganda?

I've heard references for that to either German Ocean or German Sea in the times of Imperial Germany, but didn't know the Nazis also used it. "German" would of course be swapped for "Germanic" with the establishment of the new empire. The Baltic Sea/Ostsee might also have been renamed to something like "inner sea", since it would be surrounded by the Reich on practically all sides (kinda like the Roman use of the term Mare Nostrum).

BTW Very nice development of my map, I was thinking of doing something similar myself but decided not to, would be nice to add the autobahns in the east to this, once again really nice!

Thanks.

 

[Morgan Hauser]

...mh, I wouldn't worry about the Italian politicians, though. If I were Germany, I'd worry about Italy itself. Fascist rule would last VERY little, and...weell...I don't know. I can see large scale revolts in Milan, Naples ( 8D ), Rome and just about every big city; would they be able to overthrow Mussolini, well, France could as well give it a shot. Take the USA into account, and Russia and Britain if the nazi government ends up being quite heavy, and...well. The Third Reich isn't gonna last one thousand years.

I would foresee some sort of societal collapse of Nazi Germany several decades up to half a century down the line. Nazism isn't build to sustain itself, nor to last. The USA would also quickly turn into Germany's mortal enemy as soon as it becomes public knowledge just what the Nazi government is doing to about 130 million people in its conquered eastern territories.

If Germany due to a monumental amount of good luck were somehow able to achieve the sort of victory that is displayed on my map however it would be the absolute death of Soviet communism, followed pretty soon by that of Russia as a nation as well. A lot of people don't seem to realise just how much of an amputation the loss of all of its European posessions would be to Russia. It is somewhat akin to the annexation followed by the ethnic cleansing of all of France's home soil save for Brittany and Corsica, and then expecting it to still survive as a state.

By the way, two facts that have gone unmentioned and are un-depicted on the map:
(1) Some countries outside of all the Reich territories are actually under permanent military occupation, namely France (the “old rival”), Serbia (to keep the rest of the Balkan powers in line), and Greece (HQ of the Reich Mediterranean Fleet).
(2) With countries like Turkey, Spain, and France, it might seem like they are independent, but if you note in the legend they are actually all part of the “Greater European Economic Community”. Initially I tried to display all countries in some shade of the grey German client state colour, but it just ended up making the map look incredibly dull. So instead they’re nominally independent, but with Germany practically controlling them through this client state system. For instance, if you were to take a look at this map, you wouldn’t think the Germans are actually occupying most of them.

 

[Morgan Hauser]

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

What is most interesting is the border of Armenia and Azerbaijan - either it was an error or a part he didn't pay much attention to...or....Rosenberg had some plans for Iran!!

(note where the border with Iran should be, but isn't).

Well, Hitler did say he intended to unite all the Aryan peoples..

But seriously - I did notice that as well and I think it’s just an error. This particular map looks slightly incomplete, as a number of other discrepancies can also be spotted, like Transnistria being called Moldau, the western boundary of Ostland, the missing state names and borders here and there, etc.

Well, I did see the map of the plan on tele, so it should be taken with a bit of salt...but what I did see was the division line starting at the point where the Rhine meets the border between Switzerland and Liechtenstein and then following the Rhine along the route of the Vorderrhein and from there continuing in a line (along the same angle) until it hit the Swiss border (I think it was the border with France, but it may have been the border with Italy).

Ah, okay. I do know that Switzerland would be swallowed up into Germany if Hitler had his way, but often wondered if that was supposed to be in full, or if it just meant the German-speaking areas. I also heard some reference to Hitler wanting to create a "Greater Switzerland" by adding French territory to it.

What's your source for Himmler's intended SS-Burgundy having the borders of the old Frankish kingdom of Burgundy?

Because having "the borders with France...be those of the Holy Roman Empire" and having the SS-Burgundy in that area is not strictly incompatible since during the time of the HRE, the House of Burgundy (through the County of Burgundy and Duchy of Burgundy and other Burgundian held areas) ruled over pretty much that same area. The only map I've ever seen online (although admittedly it could very well be incorrect or have confused the issue) also shows SS-Burgundy in that area.

I think I’ve heard someone mention that it was to be located in that area, but that it couldn’t never be established in wartime because that was Vichy’s resort. But you’re right - I will need some more definite confirmation than that to settle the issue. The vague geographical boundaries of “Burgundy” just confuse the issue, however.

Hmm...that brings me to another point. Why would the Netherlands have been incorporated whole as a Reichsgau? The only other place they did that with was Austria (as Ostmark) and even that was temporary as Ostmark was divided into further Reichsgaue along the lines of the Austrian Lander (with adjustments). I think they did that partly to discourage any Austrian identity and partly for administrative purposes. Also the Nazis seemed to enjoy destroying larger entities (so Russia was to be destroyed and closer to home the divided up Bavaria, Austria and Prussia into a number of gaue). The gaue also seem to decrease in size along the Rhineland and Ruhr and it seemed to me that this was due to the population density (so areas with larger populations and which are more densely populated would end up with more gaue).

I think that has less to do with population density than the eastern ones consisting almost entirely out of annexed territories, which would be better served if placed under a single governmental authority. The eventual size of East Prussia, which was nearly as large as the entire GG, is especially notable.

Oh by the way, in 1942 they renamed the “Reichsgaue der Ostmark” region to the “Donau- und Alpenreichsgaue des Grossdeutschen Reiches” (as contrasted with the Altreich).

As you pointed out they seemed to like to use historical tribes, figures and entities as well as geographical features to name the gaue, so maybe they would make Limburg a gau - it would fit with the naming pattern and Limburg was part of the German confederation as part of the Netherlands (but then Luxembourg was also a member and the Nazis steamrolled it entirely and absorbed into Mosselland so who knows?).

Good point. I'll go back and apply Rauter's plan to put the future Reichsgaue in the Netherlands under SS-veterans from the Eastern front as you pointed out in your PM.

Batavia/Batavenland sounds like a probable name, provided that Hitler and his cronies weren't turned off by the fact that the French had set up a similar entity (the Batavian Republic).

Doubt it. They'd just reclaim it as a symbol of "Aryan Germanic pride".

 

[Zajir]

With regards to Norway, Hitler promised Quisling that Norway would become independent after the war, in fact he was the only collaborationnist leader to get that promise.

What happened, did Hitler change his mind or what?

 

[varyar]

Where does it say that? According to what I'm reading it was named after the local river "Moskva" that flows through it.

Right, follow the link to the river's entry. Bear is one of the possible meanings, and Bear City sounds better than Dark City or Angled City.

I’d say those actions (Rowno instead of Kiev, Krakow instead of Warsaw) were done more for security reasons, rather than just as intentional contempt for the old institutions.

I vaguely recall reading (probably in Hitler's War Aims, which is full of useful information for Nazi Victory threads, btw) that Rosenberg or Koch picked Rowno basically out of FU, Ukraine! sentiment (and to be closer to Berlin for political and personal reasons). Could be a mis-recollection, though.

 

[Chris S]

With regards to Norway, Hitler promised Quisling that Norway would become independent after the war, in fact he was the only collaborationnist leader to get that promise.

What happened, did Hitler change his mind or what?

Hitler made lots of promises. The only ones that mattered were the ones he made to himself.

 

[Communist Wizard]

Here is the topographic map of Europe under Nazi rule. I based the borders on the OP, but sadly the projection is very distorted.
I might add names, cities, etc. later.
SVG file here:
View attachment EuropeTopographyNazi.svg

 

[Communist Wizard]

In PNG...

NOTE: Far smaller than the SVG map.

 

[PaulGonzalez]

And here is the map itself.

Where are the following Reichskommissariats?

ReichsKommissariat Ural
ReichsKommissariat Ost-Nordland
Reichskommissariat Ost-Sibirien

I found these planned Nazi zones here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskommissariat

Also, can someone make a map of what a Nazi dominated WORLD would look like? I've always been fascinated with the far out.

 

[PaulGonzalez]

Sorry, one more thing.....................

This plan for making the Yenisei River as the dividing line between the Third Reich and Japan.....which did Hitler want more:the Urals being the boundary or something like the Yenisei River, which reaches ever deeper into Asia?

 

[Kate The Great]

Casablanca and Rick's.

In this ATL was it Reagan or Bogart?

 

[Konrad13]

One small thing: You have Czechia (or Bohemia, or whatever this Nazi dominated world calls that province) controlling most of the western and northern Sudetenland. Now, barring massive "inferior peoples relocation" of the Czechs in said province, I doubt they would hold the Sudetenland and it would either be it's own province or be divided up amongst the several provinces that border it.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

TIME Magazine is frequently an excellent source. Look at that freakin date.

Books: If Hitler Had Won
Monday, Mar. 24, 1947

THE MEMOIRS OF DOCTOR FELIX KERSTEN (288 pp.)—Translated by Ernst Morwitz—Doubleday ($3.50).

This is history told by a masseur who sometimes snooped. The late Heinrich Himmler believed that his frequent, gnawing stomach pains could be relieved by massage. He went to a masseur named Felix Kersten, who now, through Himmler's thoughts-while-being-rubbed, tells what the peace might have been had Germany won.

Claiming to have been always firmly anti-Nazi, Dr. Kersten is a Finnish citizen who now lives and practices in Sweden. He declares that he treated Himmler (also Ribbentrop, Hess, Ley, et al.) simply to protect his own family. He was also instrumental, he says, in sending thousands of victims of German concentration camps to safety into Switzerland and Sweden. Documents reproduced in his Memoirs, and an introduction by Biographer Konrad (Hitler) Heiden, indicate that his claims are true. So also may be his reports of tall Nazi ambitions. Samples:

¶ Once the war was won, German would be declared the official language of Europe. English and Russian would be outlawed promptly; Danish, Dutch, Polish, French, Norwegian and Swedish were to be tolerated for a decade.

¶ West of Germany, Hitler and Himmler intended to set up a new state called Burgundy, which would sprawl across parts of France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland. The capital city: either Ghent or Dijon. Its chancellor would be Léon Degrelle, Belgian Fascist leader.*

¶ The entire Dutch nation was to be herded east to Poland and settled along the Bug and Vistula rivers, as punishment for its pro-Allied attitude. All Dutch real estate and capital goods would be forfeited to the Reich and distributed among deserving SS men, who would then establish an "SS Province Holland."

¶ All the aristocrats in Europe were to be hanged. German princes & princesses would lead the way at a mass execution held in front of Berlin's Imperial Palace. The charges: sexual perversion, espionage, high treason.

Dr. Kersten says that some of these plans came out in Himmler's rubdown ruminations, but that he discovered others for himself by peeking through documents in SS headquarters. One day Himmler showed him a medical case history covering "26 typed sheets of paper" and asked Kersten if he would be willing to take the patient. Dr. Kersten says he refused, when he saw that the man's troubles included vertigo, insomnia, laryngeal polyps, latent tuberculosis, progressive paralysis, impotence and syphilis. The patient's name: Adolf Hitler.

*One of the biggest fish who got away. Belgium's arch-collaborator fled the country in the last month of the war, in a plane which crashed in Franco Spain. After he had been interned for 15 months, the Spanish Government announced that he had mysteriously escaped. He is now believed to be either in South America or still in Spain.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,887399,00.html#ixzz100toOdYU

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Umm, isn't the above article pretty important for AH purposes, considering how it's an actual semi-historical (not sure how credible these claims or how useful) look into the dystopian plans of the Reich?