More Twin Boom Aircraft Like the P-38

IMHO there were already a large number of twin boom designs. US adopted a lot, at least from what I know. The twin boom design was surpassed by the jets, cos' the main point for a twin boom is get a plane faster with inline engines without reducing aerodynamic qualities.

F7F Tigercat was a fast plane, but when they made jets it was phased out.
 

Markus

Banned
The P-38 Lightning was debatably one of the stranger front-line aircraft of WWII, with its twin boom construction and double engines. However, the P-38 ended up being quite successful during the war, especially in the Pacific Theater.

WI the twin boom configuration for fighter aircraft, as well as other hallmarks of the P-38, became more popular in aircraft manufacturing? Would we see an evolution of fast, heavily armed fighter aircraft that aren't super maneuverable?

IMO the P-38 only seems so impressive, because other American early war fighters were rather unimpressive. The P-38 was very expensive and difficult to maintain. If the single engine fighters hadn´t lacked range and high altitude performance -something the P-38 only had in a warm climate- this contraption would have probably phased out quickly.

I think twin engined fighters in general and this one in particular would always be the exception, not the rule.
 
One might want to consider twin booms for transport aircraft. Everyone is thinking fighters here, but let's shift gears a second.

Military jet transport aircraft are not all that common - the most ubiquitous transport planes are STOL transports like the C-130 Hercules and Airbus A400M. What about twin booms on these?

And perhaps an idea of mine comes true later on - what about a system of ultra-long-range air to air missiles? Against enemies with AWACS planes, this could be useful, too. I'm thinking a handful of big twin-boom planes with two or four powerful turboprops, guided by AWACS planes, and can fire missiles at targets of 150 miles away or more. Might just get the other guy's AWACS while you're at it.
 
One might want to consider twin booms for transport aircraft. Everyone is thinking fighters here, but let's shift gears a second.

Military jet transport aircraft are not all that common - the most ubiquitous transport planes are STOL transports like the C-130 Hercules and Airbus A400M. What about twin booms on these?
There have been loads of twin-boom transports- NORD Noratlas, C-82, C-119, Su-80. Mostly it was to allow a large rear cargo door, and that can now be done without a twin boom.

As far as twin-boom fighters go, perhaps no 1957 "Sandystorm" in the UK means that a De Havilland twin-boom competes with the P.1154 to replace the Sea Vixen with the RN, as the P.1154's STOVL capability was not needed at the time. IOTL De Havilland were forced to merge with Hawker Siddeley, who made the P.1154. Of course, it would then have to actually get built rather than having the Phantom replace the Sea Vixens.
 
One might want to consider twin booms for transport aircraft. Everyone is thinking fighters here, but let's shift gears a second.

Military jet transport aircraft are not all that common - the most ubiquitous transport planes are STOL transports like the C-130 Hercules and Airbus A400M. What about twin booms on these?

And perhaps an idea of mine comes true later on - what about a system of ultra-long-range air to air missiles? Against enemies with AWACS planes, this could be useful, too. I'm thinking a handful of big twin-boom planes with two or four powerful turboprops, guided by AWACS planes, and can fire missiles at targets of 150 miles away or more. Might just get the other guy's AWACS while you're at it.

Something like this then?

uk-airforcearmstrongwhitworthargosy.jpg


argosy_3v.jpg
 
The need for twin booms in cargo planes vanished with the raised tail assemblies ala the C-130. Consider just what does a twin boom do to the cost and complexity of manufacturing? The headaches of maintenance in service? The only twin boom military airframes that came into service since 1960 that I can think of is theMyasishchev M-55 and the Cessna FAC bird. With both designs driven by their engine placements
 
Looking for an Argosy picture

Hello,

Looking for a picture of the Argosy, I found this site and joined it. I was asked by the municipality of Ede (a small town near Arnhem, Holland) to write a book on the annual parachute drop at Ginkel heath. This is a commemoration drop for the battle of Arnhem in 1944. In the 1960's the transport planes used were the Beverly, the Hastings and the Argosy. On the Beverly I got good pictures. The Hastings proves to be very difficult, and so is the Argosy. The picture published her would be perfect, for it really shows the plane while dropping Para’s. Can anyone tell me if and how I could get a copy of this picture in a quality that can be used for a book? Is Steve Williams on this forum or does anyone know him? Any other picture of the Argosy in it's parachute role would be welcome too! Regards, Gerard :confused:
 
Here's wikipedia's take with more examples: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_boom

IIRC another reason for twin-boom not mentioned there was to allow for better yaw characteristics at low speed in a twin-engine. When speed is low there's less airflow over the vert stabs so they're less responsive...that is unless you have prop wash blowing over them. Hence single-engine props had the tail in the wash and therefore could operate at lower speeds for takeoff/landing without losing yaw. A twin-engine aircraft needs a double-tail to get this advantage, meaning either a wide horizontal stab ala the Me110 or a twin boom ala the P-38. The latter option generally has better aerodynamics, hence one of the reasons why the P-38 performed so well compared to the Me110.

That said, the P-38, according to wikipedia, had more mundane design reasons for the twin boom: "The Lockheed team chose twin booms [on the P-38] to accommodate the tail assembly, engines, and turbo superchargers..."

In a jet where take-off and landing speeds are so high anyway there's not as likely any advantage to twin-boom design unless needed to shorten the engine (ala the Vampire). To quote the all-knowing wikipedia: "The use of a twin boom (similar to that of the Lockheed P-38), kept the [Vampire's] jet pipe short which avoided the power loss of a long pipe that would have been needed in a conventional fuselage."

The use of rear-placed afterburner engines in the fourth-gen fighters eliminated the point of twin-boom jet fighters. Besides, afterburner + twin-boom = melted flight controls! :eek:
 
In a jet where take-off and landing speeds are so high anyway there's not as likely any advantage to twin-boom design unless needed to shorten the engine (ala the Vampire). To quote the all-knowing wikipedia: "The use of a twin boom (similar to that of the Lockheed P-38), kept the [Vampire's] jet pipe short which avoided the power loss of a long pipe that would have been needed in a conventional fuselage."

The use of rear-placed afterburner engines in the fourth-gen fighters eliminated the point of twin-boom jet fighters. Besides, afterburner + twin-boom = melted flight controls! :eek:
No-one has yet mentioned the Hawker P.1216 project, which was a supersonic STOVL twin-boom fighter roughly the size of an F-16. Vectored-thrust nozzles between the booms and further forward, no meltable tailplane between the booms. An after-burner-like device called plenum-chamber burning was used for additional thrust. The idea of the twin booms was to prevent the aft fuselage from being damaged by jet blast.
hawkerP1216_03.jpg


The earlier P.1214 version also had forward-swept wings! This picture also gives the arrangement of jet nozzles.
hawkerP1214-3_02.jpg
 
IMO the P-38 only seems so impressive, because other American early war fighters were rather unimpressive. The P-38 was very expensive and difficult to maintain...

I think twin engined fighters in general and this one in particular would always be the exception, not the rule.

Here's an excellent thread at a WWII aircraft forum about the merits of the Lightning versus the more renowned Mustang.

There is no consensus over which is the better fighter (though the Merlin-engined P-51 is the more popular, naturally) but nobody believes the P-38 to be a turkey*.

It would seem that the main advantage the high performance Mustangs had over the later Lightning models is not as much to do with performance or manoeuvrability (though there was some advantage for the P-51 in the second category, even moreso with visibility) but in the areas of ease of production, and most importantly, user friendliness. In short the P-38 was a difficult plane to master, it was expensive, and it wasn't as numerous as the single-engined planes America built.

And that was the models produced in the last two years of the war. Between the plane entering service and the second half of '43 it had a huge number of bugs, partically in the area of controllability at high speed. I would hazard a guess that the Lightning's greatest defect was that it took so long to make into a first class fighter, whereas the high performance Mustang was taken from the stage of concept to being the dominant fighter over Europe in barely two years. Technological development was on the side of the P-51 Bs, Cs, and Ds.

Markus said:
If the single engine fighters hadn´t lacked range and high altitude performance -something the P-38 only had in a warm climate- this contraption would have probably phased out quickly.

In another thread I linked to the best performing Lightning ever proposed, and I have no doubt that the P-38K could have been a dominant air superiority fighter (and the Js and Ls were no slouches); of course if they had been put into service in the cold airs over Northern Europe too early they're likely to react badly to the poor quality British aviation fuel, thus negating the nominal superior performance. (And as for range, the Mustang and the later P-47 models were as good as the P-38. So the very fact it maintains some reputation is testament to it having other qualities.)

A dominant P-38, as unlikely as it was (the lessons of R&D and real-world experience has to be sped-up, dramatically so) could have seen the twin-boom idea viewed as a war winner.


*Except maybe some German posters. Oh, well.:rolleyes:
 
During the Thirties the Russians tried a twin Boom Plane with 76 MM Cannons in the Booms, as a anti tank plane.
Unfortunately during the test flights the recoil cased the plane to stall and the booms to fall off. Stalin canceled the Project.
 
To the main question: The P-38 suffered well into 1944 from "tail flutter" caused by areo buffeting at Mach .7 or so, a speed it easily reached in dives.
Actually, the problem was never flutter, it was compressibility, a completely different issue. Flutter was suspected, but the P-38 was strong, & Kelly Johnson (FWI read) says flutter was never an issue. The thing was, the P-38 was very clean, & heavy, & readily able to enter uncharted aerodynamic territory. Don't forget, in '39, most designs were still "back of the napkin" by comparison, & even wind tunnel testing wasn't SOP. Jets would make that pretty impossible...
 
Pushing forward into the Jet age, we do have the example of the De Havilland Venom, Vixen, and Vampire, which were quite successful in their own time.
 
Pushing forward into the Jet age, we do have the example of the De Havilland Venom, Vixen, and Vampire, which were quite successful in their own time.
Mentioned above, along with the P.1216. Had things gone differently, the UK might be operating that off the Invincibles and CVF!
There were also a couple of improved Sea Vixen variants in the works- a long-range strike version for the requirement eventually filled by the Buccaneer and a "thin wing" supersonic (Mach 1.4+) fighter that was cancelled around the time of the 1957 "Sandystorm".
 
A drawing by Krall of the LY-66 Fuchou, formerly the "Fouke-60", from The History of Chinese Aviation in my TL.

I do hope your planes have ejectionseats as any push-pull aircraft should have. This will negatively influence performance especially untill all possible adversaries have them too.

Otherwise you'll have shredded pilots if they ever have to jump out of their aircraft. Something Anthony Fokker found out in the thirties with the D-XXIII.

Nice btw to have a timeline with a big role for Fokker.
 
I do hope your planes have ejectionseats as any push-pull aircraft should have. This will negatively influence performance especially untill all possible adversaries have them too.

Otherwise you'll have shredded pilots if they ever have to jump out of their aircraft. Something Anthony Fokker found out in the thirties with the D-XXIII.

Nice btw to have a timeline with a big role for Fokker.

One way around this - I believe it was used in the Do-335 - was to have the rear propeller detatch with explosive bolts before the pilot bailed out.

I also believe one common problem with twin boom pushers like the Saab 21 (and possibly Hendryk's neat Chinese plane as well) is the pusher engine overheating. Apparently even competent engineers had problems with this.
 
One way around this - I believe it was used in the Do-335 - was to have the rear propeller detatch with explosive bolts before the pilot bailed out.

I also believe one common problem with twin boom pushers like the Saab 21 (and possibly Hendryk's neat Chinese plane as well) is the pusher engine overheating. Apparently even competent engineers had problems with this.

It just seems to me the disadvantages of such an unconventional aircraft are bigger then the advantages.
Things like ejectionseats, propellers with explosive bolts and enginetrouble in general seem difficult to solve with '30/40s technology, especialy without large weightgains.
 
More information requested on this plane

Could be this design, developed as a dedicated tank buster carrying two 30mm automatic AT guns, but would be handy vs. a heavy bomber too.

Having the guns on centreline give a coinciding hitpoint at all distances for both guns (compared to wing mounts), and relatively much of the aircrafts mass being concentrated close on the centre of gravity would point to quick reactions to controls.

The vitals (crew, engine, fuel, armament) can also be excellently protected with armour, making the plane virtually immune to anti-aircraft fire from below.

But anyway the specifications asking for a plane built around the twin 30mm AAT gun make a pusher and twin boom obvious.

The shown plane is a tank buster version, but a faster interceptor version with less armour but turbocharger and rounded wingtips (better at altitude) is offered too.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

I hate to revive an old thread, but while doing a search for 'twin boom aircraft' a link to this post popped up.

I'm interested in it because I'd like to create a scale model of it. However, I can find no other references to it anywhere.

Does anyone have any idea as to what country designed this plane? Was it ever produced, or ever in service at any time?

Thank you.

EDIT: Mystery solved! Although never actually produced, the JB 2 Fighter Bomber may be resurrected as an actual flying R/C model. Further research is needed to obtain the correct military markings. Thank you, Steffen! :)
 
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