Lands of Red and Gold

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While it is an interesting idea, I just don't get the fascination with moving the Japanese Catholics to *Australia.

If the Dutch/VoC need laborers, they need to pass by Africa, and would probably just pick up slaves; (or) move/hire Indonesians, whom they have already had experience dealing with, to the areas they need people at.

Japan is just too far out of the way for the Dutch to bother to move the people. Now if the Japanese Catholics hear rumors about this supposedly open land that fellow catholics are settling (The Netherlands was basically 50/50 Protestant/Catholic at this time.), they may try and find a way to get to this land on their own.

This would be more interesting in the long run. Here you would have a people neither *Australian nor Dutch, making small settlements in northern *Australia. I see them as a Japanese (catholic) version of the Jewish diaspora. While trying to maintain their Christian beliefs and Japanese culture they would need to culturalize themselves with the *Australians and Dutch just to survive, since their numbers are just too low.


Hmm. That might be an interesting possibility, and perhaps could be tied in to some of the other things which were going on in East Asia at the time. However, the same difficulties which would apply to the Dutch moving Japanese Christians to Australia would also apply to the Japanese Christians trying to move themselves to Australia. If anything, the logistics would be even worse.

If you decide to add something of this in, I was thinking that the Japanese Christians would leave small enclaves along their way, whether intentional or by fate. So, small communities of the JCs live in Taiwan, the Philippines, Borneo, Papua-New Guinea, East Timor,...

Eventually several make it to, what has become to them, the promised land. Say it takes 50 to 60 years to get a decent sized population in northern *Australia. What is interesting is that the JCs will be bringing along their own diseases and will encounter the indigenous diseases. The epidemics of these new diseases may be seen as further tests by God which strengthens their faith.

The diseases that they bring may make them the scape goats for the *Australians when any disease outbreak occurs. The Dutch/VoC could use this to their advantage by selling medicines or pushing away hostile from themselves to the Japanese Christians.

Depending on who makes it to *Australia the JCs may be pigeon-holed (stereotyped) into certain occupations as the decades go on.
 

Hnau

Banned
Hey Jared, fantastic new installment, thanks for writing it! Such a fun, colorful timeline you have here... a great tour-de-force of setting-construction so far.

I've got a question concerning how the *Australians react to European diseases. In 2004, a theory was made that there were two main types of helper-T cells, ones that fight microorganisms and one that targets parasites. The body cannot sustain large numbers of both, and hence adult immune systems tend to be skewed towards one or another, usually depending on their childhood exposure to one or the other. The theory concerned the idea that Native American children were usually exposed to more parasites than germs, in contrast to European children where it was the other way around. It is said this is a reason why the Native Americans were so heavil depopulated, because their immune systems were not just unprepared to fight alien European viruses, but they weren't prepared to fight microorganisms as well.

Do you think this theory holds some merit, and if so, where do the *Australians stand?
 
If you decide to add something of this in, I was thinking that the Japanese Christians would leave small enclaves along their way, whether intentional or by fate. So, small communities of the JCs live in Taiwan, the Philippines, Borneo, Papua-New Guinea, East Timor,...

The diseases that they bring may make them the scape goats for the *Australians when any disease outbreak occurs.
Depending on who makes it to *Australia the JCs may be pigeon-holed (stereotyped) into certain occupations as the decades go on.
So, you propose to make the JCs the Jews of *Australia and South-East Asia, don't you? But there were (and are) overseas Chinese, who met all requirements for the "market-dominant minority". Could the JCs compete with the Chinese even in *Australia itself? In OTL nobody did it in South-East Asia, and Australia hadn't (before recently) strong Chinese diaspora only because of deliberately racist immigration policy.
I don't know, was what you propose possible, or not. There were small Japanese colonies in SEA before Shogunate's seclusion of country, but more Japanese served as mercenaries than as merchants. On the other hand, the average Japanese (and the average JCs even more so) were more educated than the average Chinese, and Japanese economy was more commercialized than Chinese one. That sterngthens possibility of the JCs' success as trade minority in *Australia.
 
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Hendryk

Banned
So, you propose to make the JCS the Jews of *Australia and South-East Asia, don't you? But there were (and are) overseas Chinese, who met all requirements for the "market-dominant minority".
Indeed, I for one don't see the point of painstakingly bringing Japanese refugees to *Australia, when the Chinese were already everywhere in South-East Asia, including next door in the Indonesian archipelago. They'll readily take over the role of middleman minority in post-contact *Australia. Involving the Japanese would be redundant.
 

The Sandman

Banned
Indeed, I for one don't see the point of painstakingly bringing Japanese refugees to *Australia, when the Chinese were already everywhere in South-East Asia, including next door in the Indonesian archipelago. They'll readily take over the role of middleman minority in post-contact *Australia. Involving the Japanese would be redundant.

It has more to do with the fact that a large number of Japanese are about to have a very pressing reason to get out of Japan fast, and the timing is convenient.

And admittedly just the general potential for coolness of surviving Japanese Christians, given that they basically ceased to exist in OTL.

Although there might well be a Chinese diaspora heading out too, since IIRC the Qin conquest was ongoing at this point.
 

Hendryk

Banned
And admittedly just the general potential for coolness of surviving Japanese Christians, given that they basically ceased to exist in OTL.
Frankly, I for one don't miss them. Japan was thankfully spared its own Taiping uprising, and I hope this TL will keep it that way.

Although there might well be a Chinese diaspora heading out too, since IIRC the Qin conquest was ongoing at this point.
You mean Qing :)
 
Frankly, I for one don't miss them. Japan was thankfully spared its own Taiping uprising, and I hope this TL will keep it that way.

If the Taiping are your only model for the spread of Christianity in East Asia, you're going to be rather heinously biased on the subject. It's like having Nazi Germany as your only example of a country that centralized state power.
 

Hendryk

Banned
If the Taiping are your only model for the spread of Christianity in East Asia, you're going to be rather heinously biased on the subject. It's like having Nazi Germany as your only example of a country that centralized state power.
Well, there's also the Philippines, of course, in which Christianity was imposed at gunpoint. Then there's Vietnam, where after independence the Christian minority behaved like they owned the place and trampled the rights of the non-Christian majority. And in Korea, where Christianity has spread mostly without large-scale violence (for a given value of large-scale), one sees some pretty distasteful strains rising to prominence among the converted plurality. All in all, I like East Asia better without Christianity, but Jared's thread isn't the place to have this debate.
 
Will any of the Maori convert to the Pliri faith?

Good question. That's one of several things I'm trying to work out about the Maori. They won't have anywhere near as much exposure as some of the other peoples, but perhaps there will be enough.

If you decide to add something of this in, I was thinking that the Japanese Christians would leave small enclaves along their way, whether intentional or by fate. So, small communities of the JCs live in Taiwan, the Philippines, Borneo, Papua-New Guinea, East Timor,...

Eventually several make it to, what has become to them, the promised land.

This is actually the question which is bugging me more the more I think about it. Why would Japanese Christians see *Australia as a promised land? I'm not sure what the attractiveness of the place would be. As far as they're concerned, it's just some new spice island which the Dutch have discovered... larger than most, but not otherwise particularly welcoming. The areas of northern Australia are very poor for colonisation - which the earlier settlers will tell them. I'm not sure what attraction northern Australia would hold over, say, East Timor or Macau.

Say it takes 50 to 60 years to get a decent sized population in northern *Australia. What is interesting is that the JCs will be bringing along their own diseases and will encounter the indigenous diseases. The epidemics of these new diseases may be seen as further tests by God which strengthens their faith.

Hmm. If it's been 50 or 60 years, they will have been well-exposed to Australian diseases already. Except for swamp rash, but that's only in the Murray basin, which is nowhere near northern Australia.

The diseases that they bring may make them the scape goats for the *Australians when any disease outbreak occurs. The Dutch/VoC could use this to their advantage by selling medicines or pushing away hostile from themselves to the Japanese Christians.

Hmm hmm. Northern Australia doesn't have that many locals - still hunter-gatherer - so there may not be enough survivors to make their hostility felt very much. Depends on a few things, though, such as how well any JC colony would be prospering in general.

Hey Jared, fantastic new installment, thanks for writing it! Such a fun, colorful timeline you have here... a great tour-de-force of setting-construction so far.

Merci.

I've got a question concerning how the *Australians react to European diseases. In 2004, a theory was made that there were two main types of helper-T cells, ones that fight microorganisms and one that targets parasites. The body cannot sustain large numbers of both, and hence adult immune systems tend to be skewed towards one or another, usually depending on their childhood exposure to one or the other. The theory concerned the idea that Native American children were usually exposed to more parasites than germs, in contrast to European children where it was the other way around. It is said this is a reason why the Native Americans were so heavil depopulated, because their immune systems were not just unprepared to fight alien European viruses, but they weren't prepared to fight microorganisms as well.

That's not a theory I'd heard before. As far as I know, the two types of helper T cells don't distinguish between parasites and microorganisms in that way. Type 1 cells activate the cellular immune system, which includes macrophages and the like, and which hits viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoans, cancer and, well, pretty much everything. Type 2 cells activate antibodies, which do all sorts of things, really, but which also help macrophages, and which target microorganisms, and so forth.

I've never heard that the body can't produce lots of both Type 1 and Type 2 helper T cells, and even if it only produced more of one or the other, I'm not sure that would make parasites more or less of a threat than other microorganisms.

I also doubt it because Eurasians were exposed to large numbers of both parasites and other microorganisms in those times, especially city dwellers. I hadn't heard that they were more vulnerable to parasites than, say, the Maya.

Do you think this theory holds some merit, and if so, where do the *Australians stand?

I am not an epidemiologist, but it sounds rather dubious to me. If it is true, well, the *Australians would be exposed more to epidemic diseases than parasites, except maybe-sorta the cities along the Murray.

So, you propose to make the JCs the Jews of *Australia and South-East Asia, don't you? But there were (and are) overseas Chinese, who met all requirements for the "market-dominant minority". Could the JCs compete with the Chinese even in *Australia itself? In OTL nobody did it in South-East Asia, and Australia hadn't (before recently) strong Chinese diaspora only because of deliberately racist immigration policy.
I don't know, was what you propose possible, or not. There were small Japanese colonies in SEA before Shogunate's seclusion of country, but more Japanese served as mercenaries than as merchants. On the other hand, the average Japanese (and the average JCs even more so) were more educated than the average Chinese, and Japanese economy was more commercialized than Chinese one. That sterngthens possibility of the JCs' success as trade minority in *Australia.

Overall, I'd suspect that the Chinese would fit into the role quite happily. From their point of view, the newly-discovered *Australia would be just one more spice island to settle in.

Indeed, I for one don't see the point of painstakingly bringing Japanese refugees to *Australia, when the Chinese were already everywhere in South-East Asia, including next door in the Indonesian archipelago. They'll readily take over the role of middleman minority in post-contact *Australia. Involving the Japanese would be redundant.

It has more to do with the fact that a large number of Japanese are about to have a very pressing reason to get out of Japan fast, and the timing is convenient.

I'm not sure that the timing is convenient. The Dutch would be reluctant to settle Catholics in a vulnerable area, I suspect. Even if the Dutch are shipping the Japanese Christians out of Japan, why would they take them all the way to Australia anyway?

And admittedly just the general potential for coolness of surviving Japanese Christians, given that they basically ceased to exist in OTL.

Hmm. This is something of a tangent, but as I understand Japanese history of the period, while there wasn't much chance of the Japanese Christians being left around foreover, there might be some chance that they would be left in Japan for a while longer. Particularly if butterflies mean that the Shimabara Rebellion doesn't happen on schedule.

Not knowing that much of Japanese history, I am curious what would happen if there was nothing like the Shimbara Rebellion. I presume that official persecution would continue much as it had, but how many Japanese Christians would still be around, and for how long? They may still have the option to emigrate elsewhere even if they don't end up in *Australia.
 
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Jared approved map!

islander.png
 
Very nice map Nugax! It looks very profesional with the little icons.

If you don't mind me asking what program do you use for map making?

GIMP2, its the best IMO for drawing routes and such like thanks to the path tool, a lot faster than photoshop for diagramatic stuff, and pretty nice for sketching out little icons. One point where it does fall down is on resizing since everything is raster based and its algorithms seem less sharp than photoshop - you can see the odd visual flaw on some of the icons (I drew them big and then shrunk them, but should have played around a bit to fix the flaws).

I occasionally use SVG based programs to make subsections I manipulate in GIMP (including writing SVG code bare-handed) as well as manipulating large blocks of text in OpenOffice Draw, and probably should have for the icons, but that would have been a lot of work only useful if Jared wanted the map in all different sizes ;).
 
GIMP2, its the best IMO for drawing routes and such like thanks to the path tool, a lot faster than photoshop for diagramatic stuff, and pretty nice for sketching out little icons. One point where it does fall down is on resizing since everything is raster based and its algorithms seem less sharp than photoshop - you can see the odd visual flaw on some of the icons (I drew them big and then shrunk them, but should have played around a bit to fix the flaws).

I occasionally use SVG based programs to make subsections I manipulate in GIMP (including writing SVG code bare-handed) as well as manipulating large blocks of text in OpenOffice Draw, and probably should have for the icons, but that would have been a lot of work only useful if Jared wanted the map in all different sizes ;).


Maybe I should give GIMP a try. I use Photoshop CS (when I have the time. the map will be done soon Jared I swear!), but it can sometimes be a bit fickle.
 
Maybe I should give GIMP a try. I use Photoshop CS (when I have the time. the map will be done soon Jared I swear!), but it can sometimes be a bit fickle.

Oh no doubt Photoshop is a more powerful program, but the thing with GIMP is you can do simple stuff very quickly and cleanly, which is all map making really needs (as you repeating a lot of simple operations rather than doing a complex processing job).

Maybe I should make a GIMP tutorial...

...in the morning...

...zzzzz...
 
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