Maybe the Counties instead? The Towns OTL were used for fleet work a lot, I assume they would be wanted for it OTL, whereas the Counties tended to be better for trade protection and a bit vulnerable?
It's A Long Way To Nagasaki: The Anglo-Japanese War
- Thread starter SealTheRealDeal
- Start date
Yep. The Chinese did copy some of the Japanese weaponry, actually. Including those cool little 50mm "leg mortars", which Chinese manufacturers simplified at the cost of making them slightly heavier.
Thank you, Myth, I did not know that the Chinese in the OTL did copy some of the Japanese weapons.
It is worth keeping in mind that Britain has not only been attacked, it's been attacked by an Asian power at the time when the British government is starting to prepare for war with Germany.
Britain had been very willing to fight wars against non-European opponents in the inter-war years, and while the RN professionals in Britain and the modern reader will know that the Japanese are a different category, I suspect that the average MP and the average fellow on the street will not appreciate that Japan is a serious opponent and will blithely assume that Japan can be taken care of quickly and cheaply.
Also, there'd perhaps be some worry that if the British allow some scruffy orientals to get away with shelling their territory, colonial populations or the Germans might take that to be a sign of British weakness.
And I'm not sure what the consensus of the Labour party would be about the war. I doubt there'd be any significant opposition to defending the empire though. While some parts of the left had embraced anti-colonialism, and yet more parts of the left wanted to reform the empire, in general the working classes of the UK were very proud of the empire and the Labour MPs were elected by those voters. And I very much doubt that the idea of just letting Japan take what they wanted would fly with anyone.
I suspect the Labour party would be acting as a loyal, patriotic source of constructive criticism, but I am no great shakes as to the internal state of the party in this era.
fasquardon
What access to international trade does Japan have left? All shipping influenced by Britain (e.g. Lloyd's) and America is already shut down. The French and Dutch may delay a month or two until they've moved more forces into the theatre. And Germany is a long, long way off.
The Soviets are the key here. All the resources Japan might want, with a SLOC absolutely safe from surface forces right in Japan's back yard.
No problem. It's always encouraging when you have a good idea, and it turns out that the historical people also thought of it. Shows you're thinking along the right lines, IMO.
I have a question about a Japanese weapon that I saw at the National Museum of the Pacific War in Fredericksburg Texas a few years ago. It was a dual barrel heavy machine gun or anti aircraft weapon. It was mounted on two wheels. If my memory is correct, it was powerful enough to do some serious damage but light enough to be move by truck or a group of men. The placard said that it was an excellent weapon for the Japanese.
Does any one know what this weapon was and if it would be a good idea for the Chinese to copy?
Does any one know what this weapon was and if it would be a good idea for the Chinese to copy?
No, it was mounted on two wheels with a tail to stablize it. A group of men could pick up the tail and move it. The display had the two barrels horizontal to the ground like it was used against attaching soldiers.
Sounds like the Type 96 25mm AA gun - based on the French Hotchkiss - it was used by both the IJA and IJN and came in single twin and triple
Never seen a twin on wheels before though - they did have a single barrel version on wheels that I have seen?
Hotchkiss 13.2 mm machine gun - Wikipedia
This is the easiest man portable heavy AA gun for the Chinese to copy. The Mechanism is old enough to be simple yet works well enough. The 25mm Japanese AA gun was a scaled up version.
Hotchkiss 13.2 mm machine gun - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
This is the easiest man portable heavy AA gun for the Chinese to copy. The Mechanism is old enough to be simple yet works well enough. The 25mm Japanese AA gun was a scaled up version.
The Chinese also liked 20mm guns for infantry support (slightly unusually) and in an anti-tank role, which 20mm sufficed for against the Japanese through most of the war. Their mounts weren't very good for antiaircraft fire; perhaps the Brits could give them a more easily adaptable mount for antiaircraft use so they could have a triple role weapon.
SealtheRealDeal, yes it did look like that but with a tail and wheels to help move it. It sounds like the Chinese could copy it.
I am thinking that with the offensive nature of the Japanese military, a Chinese unit armed with several of these would take a heavy toll on the Japanese. I do not know what the casualty ratio is for Chinese soldiers to Japanese but if it drops to one to one that is bad news for Japan. I do not know how willing the Japanese allied Chinese, Korean, and Manchuko soldiers will be to die for the Japanese Empire.
I am thinking that with the offensive nature of the Japanese military, a Chinese unit armed with several of these would take a heavy toll on the Japanese. I do not know what the casualty ratio is for Chinese soldiers to Japanese but if it drops to one to one that is bad news for Japan. I do not know how willing the Japanese allied Chinese, Korean, and Manchuko soldiers will be to die for the Japanese Empire.
The Chinese would probably be better off getting more 20mm Madsens given they are already in service there (and iOTL they did start making their own), and lighter.
Last edited:
Deleted member 94680
Was it a Madsen? The photo on the wiki for it looks an awful lot like what you describe?
A special variant, the Madsen F5 was designed as an anti-tank gun. It proved very effective against the Japanese tanks until the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War. It was a fully automatic weapon, with two small wheels and a 15-round magazine. At 100 m, it was able to pierce 42 mm of armour, and 32 mm at 500 m. This model was reversed engineered by the Chinese 21st arsenal of Nanjing but only five were produced in 1944.
it also sounds a lot like the Type 96
Re: Chinese manufacturing capacity
The Chinese seem to have been able to manufacture most types of field/mountain guns around 75mm, antitank guns, mortars, the occasional heavier piece (e.g., 120mm guns, 150mm howitzers), gas masks, grenades & rifle grenades, land mines, optical instruments, some aerial bombs, and firearms, albeit not always in the numbers they wanted. They also seem to have crudely converted some regular vehicles into armored cars. They couldn't produce decent fighters (and they did try), and I don't know of any attempts at tanks
China usually needed to rely on foreign sources for the machines used to create these weapons, though, so if the Brits want the Chinese to manufacture (e.g.) 25 pounders, they'll have to ship over the factory equipment. As a result, China's arms industry sometimes built a variety of random stuff that they'd bought the factory equipment for over the previous few decades, with pre-WW1 rifle designs serving alongside much more modern gear.
Since China had poor roads and the military even lacked lots of pack horses, this limited production repertoire didn't cripple the Chinese as much as it would have crippled an army in Europe or North Africa, where mechanization would have been a higher priority. China was fortunate that its poor terrain was somewhat compatible with its arms industry's limits.
They are definitely able to start building the nucleus of an aircraft industry by *assembling* foreign built aircraft designs on site, like the Turks did with the Polish PZL P24 fighter. (The Turks *might* have been able to manufacture P24s on their own, based on one of the sources I've seen, but I wouldn't count on it. Even the Argentines were only able to make domestic designs like the "Bombi" in tiny numbers.) Even with the P24, though, it was not one of the most advanced designs on offer in 1938, but it likely would have been within Chinese technical abilities to *assemble* them from imported parts.
The Chinese did actually start assembling American planes in their plants as well, but the war kept moving production around. The Chinese assembled Hawk III biplanes in some numbers, I think, and probably some H75Qs, and Curtiss-Wright CW21 interceptors. They were presumably confident enough in their ability to piece foreign fighters together from predesigned kits. Like some South American and Baltic countries, the Chinese probably could develop the ability to make domestically produced trainers, but not necessarily top shelf fighters.
Now, a couple interesting wrinkles appear in plane design. First, the Chinese tried to hire out an air force not only from "volunteer" Americans, but also "volunteer" Soviets. So the Soviets might be fighting alongside the British and Germans, oddly enough. Second, the Chinese had started buying
Gloster Gladiators in the late 30s, before the British needed every plane they had against Germany. Those worked decently. In this timeline, the British might give them more, and maybe help them set up assembly plants. Those would end up getting slapped down by the Zeros eventually, though.
The Chinese seem to have been able to manufacture most types of field/mountain guns around 75mm, antitank guns, mortars, the occasional heavier piece (e.g., 120mm guns, 150mm howitzers), gas masks, grenades & rifle grenades, land mines, optical instruments, some aerial bombs, and firearms, albeit not always in the numbers they wanted. They also seem to have crudely converted some regular vehicles into armored cars. They couldn't produce decent fighters (and they did try), and I don't know of any attempts at tanks
China usually needed to rely on foreign sources for the machines used to create these weapons, though, so if the Brits want the Chinese to manufacture (e.g.) 25 pounders, they'll have to ship over the factory equipment. As a result, China's arms industry sometimes built a variety of random stuff that they'd bought the factory equipment for over the previous few decades, with pre-WW1 rifle designs serving alongside much more modern gear.
Since China had poor roads and the military even lacked lots of pack horses, this limited production repertoire didn't cripple the Chinese as much as it would have crippled an army in Europe or North Africa, where mechanization would have been a higher priority. China was fortunate that its poor terrain was somewhat compatible with its arms industry's limits.
They are definitely able to start building the nucleus of an aircraft industry by *assembling* foreign built aircraft designs on site, like the Turks did with the Polish PZL P24 fighter. (The Turks *might* have been able to manufacture P24s on their own, based on one of the sources I've seen, but I wouldn't count on it. Even the Argentines were only able to make domestic designs like the "Bombi" in tiny numbers.) Even with the P24, though, it was not one of the most advanced designs on offer in 1938, but it likely would have been within Chinese technical abilities to *assemble* them from imported parts.
The Chinese did actually start assembling American planes in their plants as well, but the war kept moving production around. The Chinese assembled Hawk III biplanes in some numbers, I think, and probably some H75Qs, and Curtiss-Wright CW21 interceptors. They were presumably confident enough in their ability to piece foreign fighters together from predesigned kits. Like some South American and Baltic countries, the Chinese probably could develop the ability to make domestically produced trainers, but not necessarily top shelf fighters.
Now, a couple interesting wrinkles appear in plane design. First, the Chinese tried to hire out an air force not only from "volunteer" Americans, but also "volunteer" Soviets. So the Soviets might be fighting alongside the British and Germans, oddly enough. Second, the Chinese had started buying
Gloster Gladiators in the late 30s, before the British needed every plane they had against Germany. Those worked decently. In this timeline, the British might give them more, and maybe help them set up assembly plants. Those would end up getting slapped down by the Zeros eventually, though.
Last edited:
Deleted member 94680
So we could see a Chinese airforce buildup (prompted by British trade incentives, possibly) kickstarting British aircraft manufacturing a couple of years earlier than OTL’s Beaverbrook efforts?
My impression was that by 1938, rearmament everywhere was already putting the squeeze on small air forces (and China's is a smallish air force) trying to buy weapons abroad. How Britain chooses to prioritize building up its own air force and manufacturing capacity, versus helping build China's, is a question I don't know the answer to in this timeline. Probably depends as much on politics as on military considerations.
EDIT: China could probably buy a fair amount from Britain if the British are willing to part with their own aircraft, though. I think Chiang paid something like $100 million in gold to finance the Russian effort, and that might not have been the entire amount.
Last edited:
On the subject of Chinese arms procurement it may well be that the best option is for the Chinese to switch to British equipment. I know that this has been discussed and there are good reasons why this wont happen, at least initially but hear me out. OTL Britain mobilised 1.1 million men by the end of 1939 with conscription, by June 1940 it was 1.6 million. Of that nearly 900000 are Regular and TA troops, and that's before you add in the Dominions etc.
What are Britain's biggest Land commitments in this war? Immediately it's to defend Borneo now its been attacked, ensure Malaya stays secure and to defend Papua New Guinea when its attacked (Brits don't know this bit yet). Then after that India and Burma need defending but that aren't in any direct threat in TTL so can use second rate formations. After that its liberate Hong Kong, and what next?.
The fact is that for Britain most of the heavy lifting in this war will be done by the Royal Navy. Once the IJN has been dealt with all Britain needs is enough troops to protect the pacific possessions and recapture Hong Kong and deal with the IJA troops around it. That wont need masses and masses of men all from Britain, yes troops will be needed but Australia, Canada, New Zealand and India will all contribute a good number. A reserve will be needed to cover eventualities and offer strategic options down the line like taking other bases closer to Japan.
The single biggest force Britain will field in this war is the Chinese army. If given the option between using British and Commonwealth troops to fight the Japanese or flooding China with arms so they fight them for you its an easy choice for any politician. As soon as the IJN has been neutered and the British and Commonwealth forces are big enough to defend the Malay Barrier, retake Hong Kong and the surrounding area and provide a reserve every every spare bullet, rifle artillery piece, shell, plane, helmet and grenade will be sent to China. It keeps the British Industry going, the dominion's also benefit as they can send equipment as well without needing to re-tool. Why should Britain care if its not compatible with what China is currently producing. Britain and the commonwealth will outproduce China so tough.
What are Britain's biggest Land commitments in this war? Immediately it's to defend Borneo now its been attacked, ensure Malaya stays secure and to defend Papua New Guinea when its attacked (Brits don't know this bit yet). Then after that India and Burma need defending but that aren't in any direct threat in TTL so can use second rate formations. After that its liberate Hong Kong, and what next?.
The fact is that for Britain most of the heavy lifting in this war will be done by the Royal Navy. Once the IJN has been dealt with all Britain needs is enough troops to protect the pacific possessions and recapture Hong Kong and deal with the IJA troops around it. That wont need masses and masses of men all from Britain, yes troops will be needed but Australia, Canada, New Zealand and India will all contribute a good number. A reserve will be needed to cover eventualities and offer strategic options down the line like taking other bases closer to Japan.
The single biggest force Britain will field in this war is the Chinese army. If given the option between using British and Commonwealth troops to fight the Japanese or flooding China with arms so they fight them for you its an easy choice for any politician. As soon as the IJN has been neutered and the British and Commonwealth forces are big enough to defend the Malay Barrier, retake Hong Kong and the surrounding area and provide a reserve every every spare bullet, rifle artillery piece, shell, plane, helmet and grenade will be sent to China. It keeps the British Industry going, the dominion's also benefit as they can send equipment as well without needing to re-tool. Why should Britain care if its not compatible with what China is currently producing. Britain and the commonwealth will outproduce China so tough.