A different Leyte Gulf
- Thread starter johnboy
- Start date
About the engagement off Samar, even if the Yamato can't go T-Rex-among-sheep in the landing grounds due to the destroyers, in OTL several carriers had to flee before it and it killed one, the Gambier Bay.
From what I've read in Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, the Japanese could have done far better in that engagement even if they were pretty much doomed.
From what I've read in Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors, the Japanese could have done far better in that engagement even if they were pretty much doomed.
TFSmith121
Banned
Interesting read so far; giving the IJN
Shinano and Ibuki as capital ships is semi-reasonable, especially if the Ise and Hyuga are not converted and (for example) the resources that went into the Unryus are re-directed - building six of them to the point of launching the hulls and beyond in 1944-45 was rather optimistic on the part of the Japanese.
One minor thing re Sakai - I don't think he would have faced any RAAF pilots in Airacobras; the Australians didn't fly them. Lots of Warhawks and variants, of course.
Best,
Shinano and Ibuki as capital ships is semi-reasonable, especially if the Ise and Hyuga are not converted and (for example) the resources that went into the Unryus are re-directed - building six of them to the point of launching the hulls and beyond in 1944-45 was rather optimistic on the part of the Japanese.
One minor thing re Sakai - I don't think he would have faced any RAAF pilots in Airacobras; the Australians didn't fly them. Lots of Warhawks and variants, of course.
Best,
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Yes. Three of the Unryu's are built and present in this scenario. Seven had been laid down, but two were cancelled in Feb 1944 due to concerns re non completion and lack of turbines. Work on two still continues, Kasigi and Ikoma(both just launched this month). Of course planes(lack of!), pilot(lack of!) and the general course of the war will mean neither will probably be completed, let alone see combat.
The only other carriers available that are not mentioned in this scenario are Junyo(preped for a resupply mission) and Hosho(still in the Inland Sea).
From what I remember of Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors that's accurate. They missed a lot.
Actually...
Dire needs of the RAAF
"The production of the Boomerang was only tooling up
, with the prototype yet to fly. The service acceptance of a small numbers of Ex-Dutch Brewster Buffalos, but in the face of its previous service record in Malaya and NEI, it was generally unwelcomed. Finally, the forlorn hope of Spitfires being sent out was being unrealistic in the near term. Therefore another modern type was to be considered.
That was the P-39D/F Airacobra. Through the salvage and repair of crashed USAAF P-39s by 3AD(RAAF Amberley) and the allocation of war weary 8th Pursuit Group P-39s, the RAAF managed to obtain it’s fourth fighter type to enter service in July 1942. They were intended to equip 23 Squadron at Archerfield and 24 Squadron at Townsville, both in Queensland.Initially it was intended to equip one flight of each designated with nine P-39 aircraft,with the balance of flights being made up of Wirraways. All pilots of the squadron would become proficient in their operation.
P-39Fs were to go to 24 Squadron first (A53-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7) and another seven available P-39Ds(A53-8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14) were to be allocated to 23 Squadron, now located at Lowood."
Actually... No 24 Squadron moved to New Guinea in August 1943, after having been reequipped with the Vultee Vengeance in May 1943. When the squadron moved to New Guinea, of course, the P39's were not meant to follow. However, the pilots had been trained on them. The Australian's not being respecters of rules and regulations and/or orders they thought foolish(or so I have been told
) took the planes with them and used them for both ground attack and as their own unofficial escort sections on missions.TFSmith121
Banned
Very interesting - thanks for the information
Did not know that; are there any records of RAAF pilots flying P-39s being lost in air to air combat with IJNAF fighters over NE New Guinea?
Best,
Did not know that; are there any records of RAAF pilots flying P-39s being lost in air to air combat with IJNAF fighters over NE New Guinea?
Best,
1059 24 October 1944
Commander David McCampbell was feeling a curious mixture of disappointment, exhilaration and relief. The third Jap raid had been broken up and dispersed, most of it well short of the fleet. However, judging from the smoke more damage had been done, which was disappointing.
This one had been much more haphazard than the previous raid, with groups of planes coming in in "penny packets". It had made the task both easier and more difficult for himself and the other 5 Hellcats on CAP at the time. Easier because the formations were smaller to attack and but more difficult as they came in at different times and altitudes.
He had shot down another six. Fifteen in one day! Surely it had to be a record. Between them the 6 Hellcats had shot down 17 of the enemy. For the first time since June he had experienced the fear of bullets tearing into his own machine. Right at the end he had been surprised by a single A5 Claude of all things that had appeared from cloud seemingly almost on top of him. Thanks god for it's puny armament as he was able to slip away and nurse the fighter back. The Japs really were throwing in everything, or so it seemed.
Commander David McCampbell was feeling a curious mixture of disappointment, exhilaration and relief. The third Jap raid had been broken up and dispersed, most of it well short of the fleet. However, judging from the smoke more damage had been done, which was disappointing.
This one had been much more haphazard than the previous raid, with groups of planes coming in in "penny packets". It had made the task both easier and more difficult for himself and the other 5 Hellcats on CAP at the time. Easier because the formations were smaller to attack and but more difficult as they came in at different times and altitudes.
He had shot down another six. Fifteen in one day! Surely it had to be a record. Between them the 6 Hellcats had shot down 17 of the enemy. For the first time since June he had experienced the fear of bullets tearing into his own machine. Right at the end he had been surprised by a single A5 Claude of all things that had appeared from cloud seemingly almost on top of him. Thanks god for it's puny armament as he was able to slip away and nurse the fighter back. The Japs really were throwing in everything, or so it seemed.
TFSmith121
Banned
A5M? Yeah, that pretty much reeks of desparation
Was it a wandering carrier-based kamikaze?
Best,
Was it a wandering carrier-based kamikaze?
Best,
1103 24 October 1944
Sherman's frustrations continued to build. The third air strike had been driven off, amounting to again 50-60 planes. The Hellcat patrol on CAP had shot down 17 and fighter launched over the fleet had claimed another 20 with AA claiming 11 more, so yet again the Nips had taken a heavy blow. However, yet again another isolated plane had achieved a hit.
A single dive bomber, had started a run on the Princeton, no doubt attracted by the flames and smoke still billowing from the carrier. Whether the carrier had actually been the target was a moot point, for the bomb that had been released had struck the destroyer Irwin amidships, causing an immediate explosion that not only sunk her in less than 10 minutes but also ruptured and buckled plating on the Princeton, which she was alongside. She had shipped a quantity of water and assumed a 2 degree list that made the job of fighting the still fiercely burning fire on the carrier even more difficult and hazardous.
Sherman's frustrations continued to build. The third air strike had been driven off, amounting to again 50-60 planes. The Hellcat patrol on CAP had shot down 17 and fighter launched over the fleet had claimed another 20 with AA claiming 11 more, so yet again the Nips had taken a heavy blow. However, yet again another isolated plane had achieved a hit.
A single dive bomber, had started a run on the Princeton, no doubt attracted by the flames and smoke still billowing from the carrier. Whether the carrier had actually been the target was a moot point, for the bomb that had been released had struck the destroyer Irwin amidships, causing an immediate explosion that not only sunk her in less than 10 minutes but also ruptured and buckled plating on the Princeton, which she was alongside. She had shipped a quantity of water and assumed a 2 degree list that made the job of fighting the still fiercely burning fire on the carrier even more difficult and hazardous.
TFSmith121
Banned
Fletchers and Sumners were tough; how big was the bomb?
Fletchers and Sumners were tough; how big was the bomb?
As per Four bombs and five kamikazes, for example:
.
Best,
Fletchers and Sumners were tough; how big was the bomb?
As per Four bombs and five kamikazes, for example:
.
Best,
According to records, RAAF only operated the cobra for no more than 6 months, all based in mainland Oz, so no combat encounters
usertron2020
Donor
There was also the issue of the Central Force being low on HE rounds AFAIK. They were loaded up with AP, which was passing right through the tin cans and CVEs without exploding. It took Kurita sometime to realize that he wasn't firing on cruisers and fleet CVs.
Against the anchorage, it would be more like a few T-Rexs against 50 Raptors.
Pretty sure I got that right about Sakai's memoirs. And it didn't mean some P-39s weren't operating as CAP over Port Moresby. Also, didn't the Australians also use the rather spurious term "P-400" to describe the P-39 for their own use? Or am I wrong? Did "P-400" refer to a variant of the P-40?
Actually...
Dire needs of the RAAF
"The production of the Boomerang was only tooling up
, with the prototype yet to fly. The service acceptance of a small numbers of Ex-Dutch Brewster Buffalos, but in the face of its previous service record in Malaya and NEI, it was generally unwelcomed. Finally, the forlorn hope of Spitfires being sent out was being unrealistic in the near term. Therefore another modern type was to be considered.
That was the P-39D/F Airacobra. Through the salvage and repair of crashed USAAF P-39s by 3AD(RAAF Amberley) and the allocation of war weary 8th Pursuit Group P-39s, the RAAF managed to obtain it’s fourth fighter type to enter service in July 1942. They were intended to equip 23 Squadron at Archerfield and 24 Squadron at Townsville, both in Queensland.Initially it was intended to equip one flight of each designated with nine P-39 aircraft,with the balance of flights being made up of Wirraways. All pilots of the squadron would become proficient in their operation.
P-39Fs were to go to 24 Squadron first (A53-1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7) and another seven available P-39Ds(A53-8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14) were to be allocated to 23 Squadron, now located at Lowood."
Actually... No 24 Squadron moved to New Guinea in August 1943, after having been reequipped with the Vultee Vengeance in May 1943. When the squadron moved to New Guinea, of course, the P39's were not meant to follow. However, the pilots had been trained on them. The Australian's not being respecters of rules and regulations and/or orders they thought foolish(or so I have been told
Thanks, but I believe Sakai was already in a Tokyo hospital by May of 1943. At the time of his reported battle with the Australian P-39 the IJN were still flying offensive air missions over the southern side of the Owen Stanley Mountains.
This WAS a memoir, however. Not a work of history, per se. I wonder, at the space of 70 years, if it was possible that it was in fact an American P-39?
AFAIK they were used in the Pacific by the USAAC briefly.1142 24 October 1944
Kondo mulled over the information that he had so far. Shinano had been righted by counter flooding and much of the list corrected. She had reported a top speed of only 25 knots but that was not disastrous as Nagato's top speed was near that anyway. Of far more serious concern was her main armament director, which was still out of commission.
The CA Aoba had been torpedoed yesterday by yet another American submarine, so the troop reinforcement convoy for the Philippines had also been disrupted. Crippled, it was hoped she would reach Manila. Yesterday had been a bad day for Japanese heavy cruisers.
He wondered if the American's had spotted Ozawa as yet? Would they take the bait?
The CV Junyo was preparing to leave the Inland Sea with with ammunition and resupply items for the fleet back in Borneo after the mission had been completed. Hopefully there would be a fleet to resupply.
The Amagi was launching the last of her planes in what would be a very small strike. 18 planes. Better that then them getting caught on the carrier in another attack that seemed likely to come.
He had heard nothing from Nishimura. Surely that was a good sign?
Kondo mulled over the information that he had so far. Shinano had been righted by counter flooding and much of the list corrected. She had reported a top speed of only 25 knots but that was not disastrous as Nagato's top speed was near that anyway. Of far more serious concern was her main armament director, which was still out of commission.
The CA Aoba had been torpedoed yesterday by yet another American submarine, so the troop reinforcement convoy for the Philippines had also been disrupted. Crippled, it was hoped she would reach Manila. Yesterday had been a bad day for Japanese heavy cruisers.
He wondered if the American's had spotted Ozawa as yet? Would they take the bait?
The CV Junyo was preparing to leave the Inland Sea with with ammunition and resupply items for the fleet back in Borneo after the mission had been completed. Hopefully there would be a fleet to resupply.
The Amagi was launching the last of her planes in what would be a very small strike. 18 planes. Better that then them getting caught on the carrier in another attack that seemed likely to come.
He had heard nothing from Nishimura. Surely that was a good sign?
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1151 24 October 1944
Saburo Sakai circled lazily whilst the planes formed up. 8 D4Y dive bombers(one had to be left behind after developing engine troubles on deck, 6 B6M's and just 2 A6M's and himself for escort.
At least he would get another chance to fly this plane. Anything was better than the "suggestion" that had been put to him in July. For him and his comrades to deliberately crash their planes into an American ship. Was it really coming to that? His beloved Hatsuyo would never forgive him. Somehow he just had to keep coming back. One day this all would end, perhaps he would be there to see it.
Saburo Sakai circled lazily whilst the planes formed up. 8 D4Y dive bombers(one had to be left behind after developing engine troubles on deck, 6 B6M's and just 2 A6M's and himself for escort.
At least he would get another chance to fly this plane. Anything was better than the "suggestion" that had been put to him in July. For him and his comrades to deliberately crash their planes into an American ship. Was it really coming to that? His beloved Hatsuyo would never forgive him. Somehow he just had to keep coming back. One day this all would end, perhaps he would be there to see it.
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This WAS a memoir, however. Not a work of history, per se. I wonder, at the space of 70 years, if it was possible that it was in fact an American P-39? AFAIK they were used in the Pacific by the USAAC briefly.[/QUOTE]
That seems more likely. I think the Australian P39's travelled only "unofficially" to New Guinea but were not there before August 1943. Sakai had left the theatre end 1942.
AFAIK they were used in the Pacific by the USAAC briefly.[/QUOTE]That seems more likely. I think the Australian P39's travelled only "unofficially" to New Guinea but were not there before August 1943. Sakai had left the theatre end 1942.