Could Wilhelm II have dismissed Hitler?
- Thread starter acgoldis
- Start date
If Wilhelm II is in power Hitler probably doesn't come to power because the mainstream German right doesn't implode over whether or not to reconcile with the Republic.
Germany abolished the monarchy before that was an option. Hindenberg maybe but he was an architect of the "stab in the back myth"
Rattenfänger von Memphis
Donor
In OTL, a 31-year-old Wilhelm II dismissed the incredibly successful, world famous 75-year-old Chancellor Bismarck in 1890. Later, Wilhelm II finally brought Germany's popular, de facto dictators, Hindenburg and Ludendorff, to heel in 1918 at the tail end of World War One. He dismissed Ludendorff but compelled Hindenburg to stay on.
Hitler kow-towed to Hindenburg until the latter's death in 1934. And Hindenburg always kow-towed to Wilhelm II all his life.
So, depending on how popular Wilhelm II was and how his powers as Kaiser might have been curtailed following Germany's defeat in World War One, I believe it would have been possible for Wilhelm II to have dismissed Hitler from office. Certainly the man who had successfully bested Bismarck and Ludendorff had the experience and the know-how to choose his moment to act.
I don't know who Wilhelm II would have chosen to replace Hitler. Perhaps Konrad Adenauer, the former mayor of Cologne, who was not a Nazi, was well-known to the Allies and who, beginning in OTL 1949, did become Chancellor of West Germany until 1963.
I don't know why his name keeps popping up in Timelines where Germany is still an Empire, especially in ones where they win WWI. Adenauer despised Prussianism, Prussian values and Prussian Government structure his whole life and spent much of his term in West Germany dismantling said values in favor of a new form of German identity (much of it also because of the association in the West between Prussianism and the Wehrmacht).
There is no way the Hohenzollerns would ever allow him to even come close to a high position of politics. A good comparison would be Yeltsin, anyone who wasn't as stupid as Gorbachev would have curbed his political ambitions on the crib in the Soviet Union.
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I'm not sure if this post is serious or not, but I will answer.
Germany was a republic when Hitler was in power, Wilhelm II was living in exile in the Netherlands and had no power in Germany.
The only person that could theoretically have dismissed Hitler was President Hindenburg. However, this was early on in the Nazi Party's rule, before things got out of control.
After Hindenburg's death in 1934, Hitler took the position of President and merged it with his role as Chancellor (becoming Fuhrer). After this, there were no more checks and balances against his rule.
Imagine if the Kaiser lives longer, somehow gets to Berlin in late 1944 and tries to start a protest demanding for Hitler's removal. It might make an interesting time line if significant numbers of citizens joined the protest, with the Nazis facing the possibility of killing the ex Kaiser if they open fire, but more realistically I suspect he would be intercepted by the Gestapo quickly and put under house arrest.
He would have Hitler dismissed and he sees him too radical to rule Germany or he would have Hitler arrested and imprison him for life after the failed Beer Hall Putsch which would prevent his rise to power and WW2 probably would have happened differently in ATL (most likely by the Soviet Russians or by the Imperial Japanese).
Rattenfänger von Memphis
Donor
I may be wrong, but it was my impression that the OP, acgoldis, was hypothesizing an ATL where the monarchy survived after the German Empire lost World War One and Wilhelm II remained Kaiser reigning until the 1930s when Hitler became Chancellor.Citycat said:
With Germany facing another devastating, and possible existential loss and hoping to placate the angry Allied Powers closing in on the Fatherland, the Hohenzollerns in this ATL might very well turn to the non-Prussian Konrad Adenauer.Kaiser of Brazil said:
The Allies were very aware that, as you say, “Adenauer despised Prussianism, Prussian values and Prussian Government structure his whole life.” The Allies constantly denounced “Prussian militarism” and, in OTL, these victorious Allies abolished Prussia’s very existence, such was their hatred of it.
I think a Chancellor Adenauer would have been Germany’s best chance at possibly better peace terms. Certainly the Hohenzollerns would also realize this in their darkest hour. Staring utter defeat in the face would tend to concentrate anyone's mind on the best way forward.Wikipedia said:
And, after all, in OTL, Wilhelm II called on another non-Prussian, a South German, Prince Max of Baden, to be Chancellor to hopefully obtain more lenient peace terms from the Allies in World War One. The German Chancellor did not have to be a Prussian. Indeed, it would be better for Germany in any case not to choose a Prussian to be Chancellor at this time, given the hatred and loathing the Allies had for Prussia and "Prussianism" (whatever they considered this nebulous term to be).
A Germany that kept the moanrchy after a loss in WWI probably has it being turned into a constitutional monarchy so no he wouldn't.
A Nazi Germany with a monarchy would be incredible different from OTL Nazi Germany, and I doubt it would have lasted until 1939 unless he massively moderated a lot of his action. If Germany still have a monarchy the army will not swear loyalty to Hitler personally, the civil service will also be far less loyal to Hitler. The Churches will also have a entire different relationship with Hitler in world where they still have local kings and princes as ceremonial heads of them.
It also important to understand that a lot of the action Hitler took, even if the emperor didn’t care about the victims, he would see these action as a threat toward him as it would increase Hitler’s power. I can’t see the Night of the Long Knives happening, both because that the kind of action which would make emperor very nervous, but also because Hitler would need the SA as a counter to the armed forces. The emperor is also unlikely to accept the Crystal Night no matter how little he may like Jews, mostly because the emperor have an interest in upholding law and order norms, Nuremberg Laws could still be implemented. The political imprisonment of Hitler’s political opponents will likely also be more limited and mostly targeting Communists. Hitler will also not be allowed to reform the border of the the different German states, as with the emperor still there, there will also be all the other princes.
It also important to understand that a lot of the action Hitler took, even if the emperor didn’t care about the victims, he would see these action as a threat toward him as it would increase Hitler’s power. I can’t see the Night of the Long Knives happening, both because that the kind of action which would make emperor very nervous, but also because Hitler would need the SA as a counter to the armed forces. The emperor is also unlikely to accept the Crystal Night no matter how little he may like Jews, mostly because the emperor have an interest in upholding law and order norms, Nuremberg Laws could still be implemented. The political imprisonment of Hitler’s political opponents will likely also be more limited and mostly targeting Communists. Hitler will also not be allowed to reform the border of the the different German states, as with the emperor still there, there will also be all the other princes.
About that... i say
In view of the later developments in Germany, some authors hold the view that the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich represents only the peak of a continuous development in German history, and that hostility towards Jews was already a "central element" in the worldview of Emperor Wilhelm II. This claim is not tenable upon objective examination.
The Facts
▪The critical voices rightly refer to the role of the Berlin court preacher Adolf Stoecker, who peppered his sermons with Christian socialism and anti-Semitism. At a time when Emperor Wilhelm I (the grandfather of Wilhelm II) was old and Crown Prince Friedrich (the father of Wilhelm II) was ill, the young Prince Wilhelm was courted from many sides as the man of the future, without anyone being aware of his views on the Jewish question. Stoecker also courted him, until Bismarck finally intervened. Becoming defiant due to the perceived tutelage of Bismarck, Wilhelm was led to the statement that as a future emperor he wanted to curb the influence of the Jewish press. However, Stoecker's influence soon waned, and during his reign, Wilhelm II was free of anti-Semitism. Finally, in November 1890, Stoecker had to give up his position as court preacher on the Emperor's orders due to his anti-Semitic statements.
▪The rise of the patriotic movement, which also found expression in the Navy League, was tolerated by the Emperor, although he had no sympathy for the racism of many Pan-Germans. About them, Wilhelm said they were incapable of developing constructive thoughts.
▪That Wilhelm II was even concerned about the security of German Jews, whose situation was much more favorable than that of Jews in France or Russia, is evident from his statement that he feared, in view of the public mood, that pogroms could also occur in Germany.
▪Wilhelm's encounter with the Austrian Zionist Theodor Herzl should also be seen in this context. Wilhelm did not reject Herzl's plan to establish a Jewish colony in Palestine, because he knew and feared that anti-Semitism would repeatedly threaten to occur if the minority of the Jewish population exceeded a certain ratio to the other inhabitants of the country.
Such a plan was never pursued, but the motives behind this idea were not anti-Semitic. Proponents of the anti-Semitism thesis even want to see a harbinger of later deportations here. However, this cannot be interpreted into the Emperor's statements. After all, on the occasion of the Dreyfus Affair in France, Wilhelm II was horrified to see that the "hydra of the crudest, most abominable anti-Semitism" was raising its "gruesome head" everywhere.
▪Wilhelm II had numerous Jewish friends. These include Albert Ballin, who owned the Hamburg-America shipping line, and Emil Rathenau. They were counted among the so-called "Kaiser's Jews," as they were sometimes contemptuously called. However, this did not change the friendship of Emperor Wilhelm II, which illustrates that he was not influenced by the currents of the zeitgeist in this regard. Many Jewish scholars were appointed professors by him.
Prince zu Eulenburg, Wilhelm II's closest confidant for a long time, also had Jewish friends; nevertheless, he shared prejudices against Jews. Neither he nor Richard Wagner's son-in-law, Houston Stewart Chamberlain, succeeded in convincing the Emperor of these prejudices; Wilhelm II had the ability to hear from what was said to him what pleased him and to ignore the rest.
▪On the occasion of a draft constitution with strong anti-Semitic tendencies and the idea that the Jews should be expelled from the German Empire, sent to the Crown Prince, the Emperor expressed with contempt: "We would deal a blow to our national prosperity and livelihood that would throw us back to the state of 100 years ago and at the same time exclude us from the ranks of the cultural nations."
▪In 1907, the Emperor made the Jew Bernhard Dernburg (1865-1937), the director of the Darmstadt Bank, the director of the Colonial Office. The Emperor liked the energetic man, who knew how to bring a dust-free air into the office, even though he sometimes showed himself inexperienced in courtly etiquette. This appointment was seen as an affront by wide circles in Germany; Dernburg also encountered fierce opposition at his first appearance before the Reichstag. But he managed to gain general respect through his performance in a short time.
▪In 1912, the largest synagogue in Berlin was inaugurated in Charlottenburg (it could accommodate 2,000 people). Wilhelm II had donated tiles for the wedding hall of the synagogue and paid a visit shortly after its opening.
▪In the summer of 1916, Wilhelm II resolutely opposed the so-called "Jewish census" in parts of the German army. The initiative for a census of all military conscripts based on their faith in general and a breakdown of Jewish soldiers by deployment (front-line service, supply, administration) in particular was driven by anti-Jewish "Pan-Germans" like Ferdinand Werner, who wanted to prove alleged "Jewish shirking" and sow social unrest with the census.
Wilhelm II had both the initiator of the census, who made the submission in parliament, and the responsible War Minister Adolf Wild von Hohenborn, in whose area of responsibility the survey lay, transferred to the front before the census date.
The demanded "Jewish census" led to a wave of protests in the German Empire, with National Liberals and Social Democrats in particular being horrified by this approach.
In total, 100,000 Jewish soldiers served in the German army during World War I. By November 1918, 12,000 of them had been killed. By the summer of 1916, 8,500 Iron Crosses of the second class and 900 of the first class had been awarded as decorations for bravery to Jews.
▪It was only in exile that Wilhelm II initially allowed himself to make occasional anti-Jewish remarks. However, the fact that these did not represent a coherent worldview can be inferred from the fact that Wilhelm, in disappointment and annoyance at the course of history, alternately accused Jews, the Poles in East Prussia, and the French in Alsace-Lorraine. At most, this can be read as bitterness over the loss of the monarchy.
The clearest proof against the thesis of anti-Semitism is Wilhelm II's reaction to the "Reichskristallnacht" of November 9, 1938. He spoke of "shame," of "gangsterism," and declared that "the old officers and all decent Germans must protest."
He also said: "For the first time, I am ashamed to be a German."
In a letter to the English Queen Mary, he wrote: "I am completely appalled by the recent events at home!"
Based on the facts gathered here, Kaiser Wilhelm II cannot be described as an anti-Semite. Above all, a racial-ideological view of the world, as later in the Third Reich, was completely foreign to him.
Proponents of the anti-Semitism thesis essentially refer to his embittered statements in exile, which do not allow for any general conclusions, and at the same time they leave out his 30-year reign, which can be seen as a protectorate for the Jews in Germany.
.....yeeeaaaah, i dont see how Wilhelm would say anything against jews or tolerate any kind of progroms against them or let them remove from the army.
So, Hitler would pretty much have moderate his anti-semitism with Wilhelm II around.
I could also see Wilhelm being very opposed to Munich, and instead push for an earlier war with Poland. This would also worsen the Polish-German relationship of the 30ties.
Yeah, i agree. It all depends how harsh thd treaty of versay is (if germany in this Szenario loses ww1) and if the Kaiser is alllowed to stay in power(with propably littly symbolic rights) or is brought back by the military and the french and british do nothing against it.
If, and that is a big if, mass killings still exist, the french and the polish might be main target, it depends if they behave like in otl or are a bit more holding back
I think this Nazi Germany would behave very differently. When Hitler gained power a lot of normal political and legal norms broke down. Here Nazi Germany will a beast with two heads, one which represent the Old Germany and one which represent the New Germany, so while in OTL people who disagreed with the action or policies of the regime simply kept their head down, here they will have a way around it. I would expect that Hitler behaved a lot more like Mussolini. But it’s also important to look at what the Old and New could agree on, and the main things were anti-communism and wanting Lebensraum.