No Tiger Tanks

[Pancakes]

Eh hard to butterfly development of the Tiger I away completely. Germany was looking to place the 88 in a conventional tank design once it had shown its capacity for destroying any form of enemy armour at a distance (until the IS made its debut of course).

Best option of course is the original Tiger I design that weighed nearly 10 tonnes less before Hitler decided it needed even more protective dakka.

Second best is a change in German tactical doctrine that limits heavy calibre weapons to case mate vehicles and instead uses conventional tanks as purely exploitation weapons, designed to wreak havoc throughout the enemy's rear rather than break through their front lines. This did happen (bar the Tiger II) in the later stages of the war because case mate vehicles were cheaper, quicker to build, and excellent for defence.

Either way you're going to get some form of vehicle mounting the 88, it was too good a weapon at the time not to be mounted on a self-propelled chassis.

 

[lhagambia]

For cancellation of the Tiger to be worthwhile you'd have to be able to divert that resource into something else. The Panther wasn't ready in 1942(or in 1943!) The only way this makes sense is for your idea of an all Panzer IV force to be in play. Then you could keep ramping up production to meet losses in Russia.

Then you have the luxury of coming up with something Panther-sized that would provide the same role as the Tiger while being a lot more mobile.

An 88 armed Panther force backed by thousands of Panzer IVs might get the job done at Kursk.

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

An 88 armed Panther force backed by thousands of Panzer IVs might get the job done at Kursk.

That would require a redesign of the Panther with a larger turret ring.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

That would require a redesign of the Panther with a larger turret ring.

AFAIK it just took a redesigned turret:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_II#Further_development
Of course the big selling point of the MAN design was being able to use an already developed turret, but given that the Panther IOTL was delayed by mechanical issues, having a new turret design in the meantime isn't ASB, but it does require some critical thinking about the consequences of loading up a 35 ton design with 45 tons.

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

I'm pretty sure panzer tracts said it needed a new turret ring.

 

[Pancakes]

An 88-armed Panther is unlikely as the long 75 it was equipped with IOTL had roughly the same penetration as the original (short) 88, if less "damage" done per shell.

Might be possible to have an earlier quasi-Panther introduction though (assuming heavy tank development is halted) if Germany simply introduces one of the VK 30.01/30.02 designs as is. Not sure if they were capable of mounting the 88 however.

 

[Vjacheslav Malyshev]

An 88-armed Panther is unlikely as the long 75 it was equipped with IOTL had roughly the same penetration as the original (short) 88, if less "damage" done per shell.

The short 88mm had significantly less penetration than the long 75mm.

 

[AdA]

The T-34-85 was not a response to the Tiger, rather the T-34-57, SU-57, and SU-85 were.

The T34-57 is a 1941 tank. The soviets tested all their existing guns capable of tank use against captured tigers and the 85mm and 122mm were mass introduced as a result.
in 1941 the possibility of using either the 85mm or the 107mm as a counter (on a KV chassis) to rumoured german "super tanks" had been tried and shelved when those tanks failed to materialize.

 

[AdA]

A lighter Tiger that would be vulnerable to the soviet 76,2mm tank gun would just be an over weight PzIV.
The value of the Tiger was the ability of a few well handled tanks to use their unique (for early to mid 1943, with the possible exception of the US M6, wich had an inferior gun) combination of protection and firepower to inflict desproportionated demage, acting therefore, as a force multiplier.
Their reliability problems were due as much to the limitations of the german logistic structure as to their technicall aspects. If they had been integrated into a US style support systhem, they would have gotten away with their heavy maintenance load (they were maintenance intensive and transport difficult rather than unreliable).

Interestingly, the first major mechanized army to reject the Heavy/Medium mix of tank post war was the German, their Leopard I being allways intended as a universal tank (the French had toyed wth heavy tank concepts, even if they b«never adopted one).

 

[Kou Gakei]

For cancellation of the Tiger to be worthwhile you'd have to be able to divert that resource into something else. The Panther wasn't ready in 1942(or in 1943!) The only way this makes sense is for your idea of an all Panzer IV force to be in play. Then you could keep ramping up production to meet losses in Russia.

I already noted you can't do that. You'll only get like two Pz IV for each Tiger/Panther, and that isn't worth it.

 

[BlairWitch749]

regarding Russian ballistic data


I tend to get really skeptical regarding Soviet claims of the ballistics and armor penetration of their guns

Hell I am pretty much skeptical of every stated ability of any Soviet system ever produced ever due to their decades long history of overstating for propaganda purposes


To that point, the historical COMBAT record of their guns never matched the brochures

In real life the farthest documented kill I have heard about on the 85mm against panthers is 600 meters from the side (actually shooting through both sides in that case)

The farthest documented kill I have heard about on the 85mm against a tiger was 300 meters from the side and there are numerous anecdotal reports that the 85 couldn't pierce the tiger frontally at any range; even within 100 meters


Hell there are a number of documented hits on Tigers frontally with 122's (which is a monster shell) from ranges sub 500 meters which didn't kill them (in the cases I read they did damage to the tanks including splitting seams but not actually destroying the tank)


One thing we have to keep in mind from the operational perspective. The tigers were given to the elite, not only was the course at paderborn and potsdam grueling for the whole crew, but the men picked in many cases were highly experienced PZ III and IV and Stugg crew members who had been to the dance before. Their record of gunnery was insane, many of them could hit the turret ring (not requiring a penetration) 9 times out of 10 up to 1000 meters

The soviets claiming that the IS could kill a panther at 2500 meters is almost laughable because their optics and range finding equipment were not at all reliable at such ranges

Even the Tiger itself with more experienced gunners and better optics was usually limited to 2100 meters

When the Germans did deploy bigger cannons (the 128mm in the jagd tiger) they actually had documented kills in combat at 4km plus

 

[Kou Gakei]

Hell I am pretty much skeptical of every stated ability of any Soviet system ever produced ever due to their decades long history of overstating for propaganda purposes

I doubt they would make propaganda for internal research purposes. Plus, those look at the ballistics in perfect conditions, which can easily be affected by battlefield conditions, crew training, ergometrics, etc.

 

[ScrewySqrl]

A note on the humorous bit about the Shermans. A lot of it is Mythology

Extensive testing in 1946 showed the Firefly's 17-pdr gun, compared to the American 76mm Mk 3 was far less accurate at long ranges --the firefly was unable to reliably hit a 5 foot target past 600 meters. At those ranges, the 76mm was faster to fire, more reliably on target, and penned armor just as well.

Both had difficulty with a panther or tiger's front plate at 1000m, but could pen the sides at that range...if the firefly could actually get a hit. And neither has problems with a T-34's hull armor at 1000m

 

[Imladrik]

regarding Russian ballistic data

I tend to get really skeptical regarding Soviet claims of the ballistics and armor penetration of their guns

Hell I am pretty much skeptical of every stated ability of any Soviet system ever produced ever due to their decades long history of overstating for propaganda purposes

So, basically, because you are influenced by decade long history of downplaying Soviet achievements, internal data are propaganda ? Riiiight...

To that point, the historical COMBAT record of their guns never matched the brochures

In real life the farthest documented kill I have heard about on the 85mm against panthers is 600 meters from the side (actually shooting through both sides in that case)

Here, you see. Panther flank armor : 40mm. Soviet penetration table result for 500m : 84mm. Seems pretty consistant.

The farthest documented kill I have heard about on the 85mm against a tiger was 300 meters from the side and there are numerous anecdotal reports that the 85 couldn't pierce the tiger frontally at any range; even within 100 meters

Shit happens. But yeah anectodal evidence are better than actual tests.

Hell there are a number of documented hits on Tigers frontally with 122's (which is a monster shell) from ranges sub 500 meters which didn't kill them (in the cases I read they did damage to the tanks including splitting seams but not actually destroying the tank).

Which probably means that the crew fired with an HE shell already loaded. And a tank with split seams is basically destroyed.

The soviets claiming that the IS could kill a panther at 2500 meters is almost laughable because their optics and range finding equipment were not at all reliable at such ranges

All kills in WWII above 1.5km were basically a lucky shot.

Even the Tiger itself with more experienced gunners and better optics was usually limited to 2100 meters

Despite what is often said, soviet optics were of a very good quality (according to american testers working at the Aberdeen test grounds)

When the Germans did deploy bigger cannons (the 128mm in the jagd tiger) they actually had documented kills in combat at 4km plus

Source ? (and please no nazi fanboys site like barbarossa.net, or achtungpanzer)

 

[Imladrik]

A note on the humorous bit about the Shermans. A lot of it is Mythology

There are a lot of myth about tank in WWII. Most of them are about how german tanks were awesome and how allied tanks were crap.

And neither has problems with a T-34's hull armor at 1000m

Just like the T-34-85 had no problem destroying a sherman at that distance. Only the Germans tried to have indestructible tanks, with the obvious consequences (overloaded suspensions, tanks being far too heavy, etc).

 

[BlairWitch749]

Source ? (and please no nazi fanboys site like barbarossa.net, or achtungpanzer)

Devey, Andrew (1999). Jagdtiger : the most powerful armoured fighting vehicle of World War II. 2. Operational history. Atglen, PA: Schiffer Pub. ISBN 978-0-7643-0751-5.


its well remarked in Carius and Ernsts bio's as well (as they commanded the main Jagdtiger forces that actually deployed). Erst himself knocked out 3 shermans from 4000 meters

 

[LostCosmonaut]

When the Germans did deploy bigger cannons (the 128mm in the jagd tiger) they actually had documented kills in combat at 4km plus

The Germans might have claimed a kill at this distance, but I severely doubt it. As far as I know, the record is about 5 km, by a Challenger 1 during Desert Storm. The Challenger 1's optics, rangefinder, and fire control are just slightly more advanced than those of the Jagdtiger. Even if such a kill did occur, it would be due to luck, not skill or the quality of German armaments.

 

[brovane]

I'm pretty sure panzer tracts said it needed a new turret ring.

Their was a design plan to mount a 88L71 in a new turret for the Panther. It would have been a tight fit but it was doable.

 

[ScrewySqrl]

Their was a design plan to mount a 88L71 in a new turret for the Panther. It would have been a tight fit but it was doable.

unlike World of Tanks, Pen is what matters in the real world, not damage -- real tanks don't have hit points.

the 75mm L/100 had 198mm of Penetration at 30 degree slope at 100m compared to the 88mm L/56 of 132mm at 30 degree slope at 100m.

the Panther-75 is a more powerful gun

 

[Kou Gakei]

the 75mm L/100 had 198mm of Penetration at 30 degree slope at 100m

..... What? That gun was never tested for penetration.