Lands of Red and Gold

[Falecius]

Well, that's good then. I just suspected post-Napoleonic Westerners would be much more likely to have mental images of Egypt than Early Modern Europeans, but I suppose that although the Bible doesn't sketch a clear picture of Pharoanic Egypt, people would tend to supply the imagery since the place features so much, and I guess by the Early Modern period enough travelers, both as pilgrims and for more secular purposes would have filled in details to displace the Medieval tendency to imagine foreign places as basically like Europe.

They would after all inherit Classical descriptions of the Wonders of the World and the Pyramids would be the only ones to survive to modern times. (The Parthenon is still fairly intact at this point I believe, and may, with suitable butterflies, stay that way. Except for the Great Pyramid though, the rest of the Seven are all gone).

I do want Baffin to have that moment of mental whiplash!

Too bad he couldn't be thinking of a ziggarut, but I think those are only known to modern consciousness via archaeology. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon would describe something ziggarut based, I believe, but I don't know that Europeans would have any clear idea of them; depends on how good the Classical description was.

The only clue they are going to have about ziqqurats, I think, is the Tower of Babel, that is like to say, almost nought. Some early notes about cuneiform writing appear in Europe around this time and there's some early interest in deciphering, but that's still relatively marginal. Hierogliphs were big deal in comparison. And no modern archeology yet, though the groundwork for its development is already well underway.
I agree that two centuries later IOTL was a time where a more vivid picture of Egypt existed in Western minds. But don't forget that seventeenth century British Isles were the place where modern Freemasonry was born. And it harked back a lot to Ancient Egypt (well, it's some decades later to be fair, and the Egyptian stress would increase over time). But there's all the Hermetic tradition, and some strange fellows around OTL with all kinds of, well, remarkable connections. I am not sure that the Egyptin-Aztec pyramid-based link was already theorized at the time but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
Weirder ideas had currency, actually cultivated Europeans of this time had an interesting and sophisticated taste for weirdness.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Congratulations to Jared. Enjoy yourselves, and best of luck.

Looking forwards to the return of LoRaG when you're less busy.

 

[dropbearabroad]

Congratulations and best wishes for your wedding.

I've enjoyed many timelines on AHDB but this is my favourite. From what I remember of previous posts the glass ziggurat is near where I grew up.

 

[The Sandman]

Congrats, Jared. Although does that mean that AH.com would now be considered your piece on the side?

 

[Aozhouhuaren]

Congratulations, Jared! Your absence is much more forgivable now! Wishing you and all your new bride all the best!

 

[mojojojo]

Congratulations Jared
If anyone deserves a Happily Ever After ending it is you

 

[Falecius]

Congratulations, Jared. And thanks for creating this.

 

[The Uchronian]

Congratulations, Jared. And thanks for creating this.

Seconded. Rarely do good Aussie TLs get created with a POD before the American Revolution era, and this one's first global POD is in the 1600s. And he's managed to weave a very interesting fabric of a story indeed.

 

[chr92]

Congratulations, Jared. And thank you for that magnificent scene.

 

[Jared]

Thanks for the congrats, everyone.

Also congratulations to Baffin, though he may not be particularly happy about what he found, at the moment. It is one of the creepier ways to decorate a spare pyramid.

True that. Together with the Atjuntja and their temples of pain, this will be one of the parts of Aururia which makes it into the popular European consciousness.

I wonder how much Baffin would associate pyramids with Egypt. There wasn't a lot of talk about the Pyramids--none I can recall--in the Bible, and that would be a European of this period's main association with Egypt. To be sure there are always travelers, and Egypt is both right next to Palestine and itself an associated "Holy Land" to Christian pilgrims.

The association of Pyramids = Egypt was broadened with later Egyptology during eighteenth century onward, but Egypt was part of the field of "oriental studies" during this period. So as far as I know pyramids would still be part of the popular image of Egypt even in the seventeenth century, despite not being mentioned in the Bible. (And while it's not biblical, people may think then that the Hebrews built the Pyramids while slaves in Egypt.) As you mention, the pyramids were one of the seven wonders of the ancient world - and they were certainly well known since the Renaissance and the revival of interest in classical literature.

Plus, this way Baffin does get that extra shock when he discovers that this is more of an Aztec moment. (As an aside, though, would Europeans think of the Mesoamericans as Aztecs at this point? I think that the modern use of the term Aztec was more of a nineteenth century development.)

They would after all inherit Classical descriptions of the Wonders of the World and the Pyramids would be the only ones to survive to modern times. (The Parthenon is still fairly intact at this point I believe, and may, with suitable butterflies, stay that way. Except for the Great Pyramid though, the rest of the Seven are all gone).

To nitpick, the Parthenon wasn't one of the seven wonders. It was still much more intact at this point, though - the disaster of 1687 was still in the future, and may well not exist ATL.

Too bad he couldn't be thinking of a ziggarut, but I think those are only known to modern consciousness via archaeology. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon would describe something ziggarut based, I believe, but I don't know that Europeans would have any clear idea of them; depends on how good the Classical description was.

There's scant knowledge of ziggurats at this point, alas. The Hanging Gardens - if they ever actually existed and weren't just a confusion for gardens in Ninevah - were described by a handful of classical authors but only in general terms as some sort of terrace. I doubt that they would register on Baffin's mind even though he would presumably have heard of each of the Seven Wonders.

 

[Falecius]

(As an aside, though, would Europeans think of the Mesoamericans as Aztecs at this point? I think that the modern use of the term Aztec was more of a nineteenth century development.)

Largely true I think. Probably just "Mexicans" at this time.

 

[Max Sinister]

Congratulations, Jared!

And yes, the term "Aztec" is derived from their mythical land Aztlan; it was coined by Francisco Javier Clavijero (according to WP) in the 18th century and spread by von Humboldt later. So it's definitely an anachronism yet.

 

[Archangel]

Congratulations, Jared!

 

[Petike]

OK, I'm starting work on those drawings. Wish me luck.

 

[twovultures]

Congratulations on the marriage, Jared. Live long and prosper.

Also, I love the latest update. There's something beautifully Lovecraftian about the whole thing.

Oh, also FINALLY finished reading this timeline. Now to get to work editing out all the inadvertent rip-offs of you I've done in mine and editing in all the purposeful ones.

 

[Zireael]

I'll chime in: Congratulations!

And, of course, thanks for an update!

 

[Tek]

Not sure whether this is grave digging or not as a post hasn't been written in almost tow weeks but LoRaG has gone through a lot of hiatuses. So I'm just going to say that I finally conquered this excellent read. Subbed!

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Hey on Egypt, why not having a NON occidental for once doing the Miracle of decyphring.. or such other scientifical breakthrought.

Sciences may have flowered in Occident quite, the 'east' gave us also a LOT.

Why not by example, an arabic scholar, versed in many languages... A christian ones, like a Copt, could do.

 

[mightfly]

A well thought out topic.

i have been wondering how might an australian civilization might look and develop.

Thanks!

But I feel the potential of the Emu has been over looked again as a limited draft animal similar to the llama. i have always felt aboriginies may have tried to domesticate them in the past which is why they have such mild temperments towards humans. While emus can't be riden they could be used to carry satchels of goods or weapons tied to a leash and guided. They can even be used to carry the smallest children which means trade and travel range expands. Emus can be more than food sources.

Give the Emu a chance.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I wonder how much Baffin would associate pyramids with Egypt. There wasn't a lot of talk about the Pyramids--none I can recall--in the Bible, and that would be a European of this period's main association with Egypt. To be sure there are always travelers, and Egypt is both right next to Palestine and itself an associated "Holy Land" to Christian pilgrims.

But meanwhile, there are the Mesoamericans to think of too. I imagine the Aururian pyramid more resembles an Aztec or Mayan step-pyramid than an Egyptian smooth one, and lurid tales by the Conquistadors might stick in the contemporary European mind more than traveler's tales about Egypt.

To be sure, if Baffin is thinking "Egyptian pyramid!" and then sees the skulls, he'll switch over to "Aztec pyramid" and it will give him mental whiplash! So it's funnier if he's thinking Egyptian at first.

But I just don't know how much Egypt was a factor in European consciousness in the Early Modern period, before Napoleon's expedition there, whereas the American versions will be more recently on their minds, especially for world explorer types like Baffin.

Firstly, the pyramids were one of the '7 wonders' of the ancient world, which any educated person would know of. Was it perhaps the only surviving one? So, he'd certainly know OF the Egyptain pyramids, even if he had never seen them.

Secondly, didnt Europeans postulate Egyptian contact as the inspiration for the mesoamerican ones? Or was that Victorian?

Edit: Hmmm... Wiki claims the Pharos survived past 1300 and the Mausoleum to almost 1500. Which is a lot later than I remembered. Still, the only survivor was the Great Pyramid by Baffin's time.