Lands of Red and Gold

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Thande

Donor
Just read up to date. Excellent work as usual. Although some of the recent segments ghostwritten by Yoda they were ;)

Alleghania was one of the names considered in OTL for the United States, so I guess it is the end result of the English colony in Virginia, though I wouldn't be surprised if TTL sees a smaller chunk of North America speaking English thanks to the Swedish venture and Dutch wealth pouring into New Netherland.

The fact that some of the earlier texts were quoted from a History of the Dutch-speaking Peoples implies that Dutch is a more widespread language than OTL: the Cape and colonies in America retained perhaps and delivering up successor states, and Dutch seems likely to become an Aururian lingua franca. The reference to Nuyts in Japan makes me wonder what will happen in that area: the Tokugawa Shogunate's domination is only a couple of decades old at this point and butterflies could have interesting results there - for example if a Dutch-Spanish(/Portuguese) trade war stemming from the raids in Aururia leads to the Spanish/Portuguese sacking the Dutch base at Nagasaki.
 
Great update (well, Jared is probably tired of praise by now - but what can we do if it is great?).

Some thoughts:

1. Nuyts' expedition to the Yadji lands could be luck in disguise for them - if his army fails, the Yadji would get:
a) cadre of sailors, musketeers and gunners (something like Portuguese mercenaries in the Malay principalities of early modern era), who can try to reverse-engineer their ships and weapons with reasonable chances of success (and with Yadji torturer standing beside as stimul to work well);
b) cause to rally around Imperial banner (they can use invasion to intensify their strifes, of course, but it is worst case; national unity in front of terrible threat is quite possible).

2. The VOC should try to sail the Nangu path back - from Batavia around eastern Aururia to Jugara. If Dutch ships are unsuitable for such a voyage - well, it's time to learn from Nangu shipwrights.

3. Looming civil war among the Islanders is very bad for them: there are too few of Nangu (and even less with each European plague incoming), they are starting to experience problems with food imports, and their traditional trade partners are being wooed by outsiders. I saw hints of unity after period of strife in 'quote' from Accord Anderson, and hope that these hints will come true.
 
The last name Anderson is usually either Scottish or Swedish.

Anderson was originally Scottish, but also became reasonably common in England and elsewhere in the UK.

The only alternatives I can think of is he's the descendant of slaves, or possibly had his surname anglicized, although that's one hell of an anglicization in that case.

You're getting warmer... :D

I tried to see if there were any hints in the word order, which is truly bizarre, but I'm not very good at sentence diagramming. I think when it's not SVO it's SOV, but that's even more common than English's word order, so it doesn't help narrow things down much.

There's also VSO, which is found in the AfroSemitic and Celtic languages (plus, I think some in the South East Asian archipelago and Hawaii)

Look you, boyo

The word order is indeed a mixture of SOV, SVO and VSO, and the way it's written in that excerpt varies mostly on which words the writer wants to emphasise.

I'm also mulling over whether to reveal most of what's going on here about Alleghania and Accord Anderson. I'm usually reluctant to give those sorts of spoilers in advance, but while there are major spoilers involved, to be honest what happens in North America is mostly tangential to the main thread of the timeline (which will focus on Aururia), so revealing it might not be such a big deal. The only really significant spoiler is how the Plirite faith ended up in North America, and I can leave that bit vague.

A few years ago I can up with this idea https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=81586&highlight=camels+australia

Basicaly could a horse or camel nomad culture have arisen in Australia?

Possibly, in the right circumstances. Although water ain't that common, so horses would have to be more restricted in their numbers. Unless the nomads learn to drill into the Great Artesian Basin. Camels could be more wide-ranging.

Could any of the non-settled non-agricultural Aururians take up this lifestyle?
Could they become pastoralists the Aururian equivalent of Bedouins, going from water hole to water hole with their herds of goats and sheep?

Possibly, in fringe areas. The problem is that the lands which are more suited to pastoralism - basically, the pastures just west of the Great Dividing Ranges, such as the Darling Downs - already have farming people on them, in a lot of cases. Maybe camel-riders in the interior.

The other possibility is that agricultural peoples may take up horses/cattle as significant portions of their lifestyle, while still remaining farmers. What I'm thinking of here is that in large parts of Aururia, farmers live in scattered villages where they farm a lot of their basic crops, but they maintain large rangelands around their villages. Those rangelands are burned/maintained for hunting of kangaroos, and are much favoured for their meat. It's possible that farmers would adapt to ranching horses and/or cattle in those rangelands instead of kangaroos, using them as a source of meat, while not abandoning farming completely either.

Camels would do very well if introduced...the big Q is who introduces them and why?

Anyone who's exploring the outback, probably. The advantages of camels are pretty obvious, which is why they were used so much in OTL.

The Dutch may start trading some to the locals if the idea hits someone that it'd be profitable, but I doubt they'd use them themselves (Camels are vicious bastards). Ditto for the English. Maybe the Spanish or Portuguese, if they set up a settlement.

The British settlers in Australia obtained their camels mostly from India, I believe, but they also used some from parts of the Arabian peninsula and Mesopotamia. Reportedly even some from the Canary Islands (!) although that may just be an urban myth.

I'd expect that anyone with the right trade connection could get camels.

Horses would have trouble surviving outside of the wetter, greener areas, all of which are settled. The Outback would kill them. They did well in NA since the Steppe-like Great Plains are well suited to them. Ergo the Yadji and Adjunta might adopt them as "civilized" cavalry, but the nomadic cultures forced to the deserts would find little hope of gaining sufficient populations to support a "horse culture" of Sioux, Apache, or Pawnee levels, IMO.

Horses might survive in relatively small numbers in the outback, but yes, overall, the fertility there is not high enough to support a big horse culture. It's camels all the way.

More likely I'd see donkeys as becoming the feral animal of Aurauria. They are hardy (we have large feral populations living in the Sonoran desert, so while the sands of the Outback may be unlikely they could do fine in the dry upper Murray and coasts and mountains...anywhere with the odd Billabong or water-rich plants), can eat about anything (not to goat levels, but unlike horses can do fine on forage), carry heavy loads (including a rider, but aren't good fighting animals w/o chariots, just transport/dragoon), and require very little maintenance (unlike horses, which are a lot of work to raise, train, and maintain). The Dutch, Spanish, and English will all use them, so their introduction seems likely.

Indeed, I've already mentioned the Dutch importing donkeys to the Atjuntja lands. I'm not sure whether they will be more important than horses, though it's a possibility.

I miss the sealions :(

Blame Tjunini sealers...

Just read up to date. Excellent work as usual. Although some of the recent segments ghostwritten by Yoda they were ;)

Clarity you seek? Which language think you like this speaks?

Alleghania was one of the names considered in OTL for the United States, so I guess it is the end result of the English colony in Virginia, though I wouldn't be surprised if TTL sees a smaller chunk of North America speaking English thanks to the Swedish venture and Dutch wealth pouring into New Netherland.

There's certainly potential for North America to be linguistically more diverse than in OTL. Although I note that while there were certainly some immigrants from other parts of Europe - and could be more - there's a reason that most of North America ended up English-speaking. The British Isles were, for various reasons, much more effective at sending out large numbers of immigrants, and I wouldn't expect that to change too much ATL.

The fact that some of the earlier texts were quoted from a History of the Dutch-speaking Peoples implies that Dutch is a more widespread language than OTL: the Cape and colonies in America retained perhaps and delivering up successor states, and Dutch seems likely to become an Aururian lingua franca.

That's certainly a distinct possibility. The Dutch trading empire is likely to be larger, and in at least a few places, the Dutch language is likely to become more established.

The reference to Nuyts in Japan makes me wonder what will happen in that area: the Tokugawa Shogunate's domination is only a couple of decades old at this point and butterflies could have interesting results there - for example if a Dutch-Spanish(/Portuguese) trade war stemming from the raids in Aururia leads to the Spanish/Portuguese sacking the Dutch base at Nagasaki.

Japan is an interesting case; I'm still not sure how they are going to react to the combined effects of Aururian plagues and a broader Dutch-Spanish trade war. I'm not that familiar with Japanese history of the period, which makes it harder to judge.

1. Nuyts' expedition to the Yadji lands could be luck in disguise for them - if his army fails, the Yadji would get:
a) cadre of sailors, musketeers and gunners (something like Portuguese mercenaries in the Malay principalities of early modern era), who can try to reverse-engineer their ships and weapons with reasonable chances of success (and with Yadji torturer standing beside as stimul to work well);
b) cause to rally around Imperial banner (they can use invasion to intensify their strifes, of course, but it is worst case; national unity in front of terrible threat is quite possible).

If the invasion fails, the Yadji might get some knowledge boosts, of course. Although I suspect that the Yadji reaction to captured Dutch (and local Dutch allies) would be more along the lines of "make an example of them".

2. The VOC should try to sail the Nangu path back - from Batavia around eastern Aururia to Jugara. If Dutch ships are unsuitable for such a voyage - well, it's time to learn from Nangu shipwrights.

The VOC can try, it's just that their ships aren't as good at it. (Sailing north along the east coast of Aururia is easier). This is actually a question of trade-offs. Nangu ships are more manoeuvrable into the wind, Dutch ships are faster when sailing with the wind. In general, Dutch traders have found it useful to sail with the prevailing winds and currents, because this is faster overall. Whether it's worthwhile to design different ships to handle the trade within Aururia-Batavia itself... well, maybe. Not sure how the VOC will decide that one.

3. Looming civil war among the Islanders is very bad for them: there are too few of Nangu (and even less with each European plague incoming), they are starting to experience problems with food imports, and their traditional trade partners are being wooed by outsiders.

Yes, the Island's position is getting rather tenuous. And Accord Anderson did mention (although his writing is of course hard to follow) that this led to the extinction of several bloodlines.

I saw hints of unity after period of strife in 'quote' from Accord Anderson, and hope that these hints will come true.

There is a Nangu diaspora mentioned; make of that what you will. :D
 

Thande

Donor
Another thing I forgot to mention: although this TL is obviously rooted in well-researched, real-life Australian flora, fauna and geography, the fact that the Aururian cultures are necessarily largely drawn from whole cloth due to butterflies leaves one with the distinct and unusal impression that what we are witnessing is a chunk of the world that is the setting of a low-fantasy novel slung down on our own Earth via ISOT, and its inhabitants interacting with OTL people and cultures. Jared's butterfly net strategy obviously fuels this idea. Which is not a criticism: it can be viewed as an interesting twist on the oft-cited notion that even in OTL, Australia is so alien that it might as well be part of a separate creation.
 
My money's on some intermediate outcome to the upcoming Dutch invasion--neither full success (the Cortez/Pizarro scenario) nor utter failure. Perhaps the Dutch obtain a toehold (with native help?) but prove unable to topple the Yadji? The military imbalance in technology is bad but not insuperable for the Yadji, and if the expedition's leader is anything to judge by, Yadji leadership might be considerably better than that of their Dutch adversaries. Muskets can only get you so far, after all...
 

The Sandman

Banned
I'd also think that Tjibarr will intervene if looks like the Dutch are winning, as a way of getting in on the defeat of their traditional enemy and settling old scores and border disputes.

Needless to say, the Dutch expedition won't be pleased by the idea of another native power taking part of the spoils, but if they manage to antagonize Tjibarr into attacking them they're guaranteed to lose.

In general, the political ramifications are going to be the exact opposite of what the Dutch East India Company would prefer; with the collapse of one of the Aururian great powers at the hands of a Dutch invasion, the other polities of Eastern Aururia are going to be reevaluating their relationships with the Dutch and the other European powers as a matter of national survival.
 
First off, a couple of posts from earlier I managed to miss.

I'm reminded of Charlotte Corday.

I didn't have Charlotte Corday in mind when I wrote that section (my inspiration was more... indirect), but yes, she fits very well.

Interesting news. Of course, they don't say that melons CAME from Australia, as the divergence seems to be 3M years ago, but they didn't find anything more closely related elsewhere...

'Twould be interesting to find out more about these species of melons in Oz, but it looks like little has been published yet. So it'll be hard to justify working them into LRG. Of course, that will spare everyone from any puns about big... melons.

Another thing I forgot to mention: although this TL is obviously rooted in well-researched, real-life Australian flora, fauna and geography, the fact that the Aururian cultures are necessarily largely drawn from whole cloth due to butterflies leaves one with the distinct and unusal impression that what we are witnessing is a chunk of the world that is the setting of a low-fantasy novel slung down on our own Earth via ISOT, and its inhabitants interacting with OTL people and cultures. Jared's butterfly net strategy obviously fuels this idea.

Yeah, 'tis unavoidable that when dealing with a PoD so far back that at least part of what is described in a TL is more or less made-up; grounded in what can be deduced from the natural world (as you point out), but still, there's a lot of extrapolation. Plonking something like that in a rest of world which is more or less unchanged makes for an odd mix of familiar and distinct. Which means... hmm, I don't really know, other than it's fun to speculate about what such a world could turn out like. For me, at least.

Which is not a criticism: it can be viewed as an interesting twist on the oft-cited notion that even in OTL, Australia is so alien that it might as well be part of a separate creation.

Anyone who's had a close encounter with a platypus knows that Australia came from a separate creation. I guess that means that all Australias are created separate, but some are created more separate than others.

My money's on some intermediate outcome to the upcoming Dutch invasion--neither full success (the Cortez/Pizarro scenario) nor utter failure.

Even Cortes failed on his first go at Tenochtitlan, so there's scope for trouble along the way even if the Dutch end up conquering the place.

Not to mention that even an apparent "success" might be transitory in the face of later revolt. The Incas had some pretty serious revolts against the Spanish, which failed largely because the technological gap was too large; while the Incas learned how to kill a few Spaniards here and there, they couldn't do enough to close the gap (especially against cavalry).

The Yadji are rather ahead of the Incas... even if they fail at first, there still may be revolts later, with a potential chance of success.

Perhaps the Dutch obtain a toehold (with native help?) but prove unable to topple the Yadji? The military imbalance in technology is bad but not insuperable for the Yadji,

Still be looking at very bad kill ratios, but if it becomes a case of, say, 10 dead Yadji for every dead Dutchman, the Yadji still win.

and if the expedition's leader is anything to judge by, Yadji leadership might be considerably better than that of their Dutch adversaries.

Rather ambiguous there. Nuyts senior is not the brightest bulb in the box, but the Yadji also have a rather rigid, hierarchical society which does not encourage much independence of thought. This does augur well for military discipline, though.

Muskets can only get you so far, after all...

Yeah, they aren't a game-breaker in themselves. What will be more interesting is the combination of pikes and muskets, which Dutch armies were evolving into in this period. Muskets for breaking up enemy formations (with some cannon for support), pike and steel to make the Dutch formations hard to attack. With cavalry for reconnaisance and raids where required. Not impossible for the Yadji to beat, but rather damnably difficult.

I'd also think that Tjibarr will intervene if looks like the Dutch are winning, as a way of getting in on the defeat of their traditional enemy and settling old scores and border disputes.

That is quite likely. Tjibarr and the Yadji have a long history of antagonism, and Tjibarr would be more than happy to join in and take what they can. Even if the Dutch don't want them to join in.

And given that the Tjibarr are probably the most long-term thinkers on the continent, they also would want to make sure that Dutch rule isn't too secure, too. They're like that. Not to mention doing their utmost to ensure that a number of European muskets and powder go "missing".

Needless to say, the Dutch expedition won't be pleased by the idea of another native power taking part of the spoils, but if they manage to antagonize Tjibarr into attacking them they're guaranteed to lose.

Quite. Tjibarr and the Yadji together would be too much for the Dutch to deal with. Especially since Tjibarr joining in against the Dutch would be guaranteed to ensure the defection of any local allies which the Dutch might have found within the Yadji realm (except maybe the Kurnawal in the east).

In general, the political ramifications are going to be the exact opposite of what the Dutch East India Company would prefer; with the collapse of one of the Aururian great powers at the hands of a Dutch invasion, the other polities of Eastern Aururia are going to be reevaluating their relationships with the Dutch and the other European powers as a matter of national survival.

Yes, the VOC is going to be many colours of unhappy, regardless of the result. If the Yadji collapse, then no-one else is going to trust the VOC, including the already-weakened Atjuntja. If the Yadji somehow fight off the Dutch, then things are just as bad: the Yadji will be seriously angry at all things Dutch, and the rest of the Aururian powers will still lose faith in the Company.

And on another note, I've decided that it's reasonable to explain (in very broad terms) what in the world was going on with Accord "call me Yoda" Anderson in Alleghania. While it does involve some spoilers, they really are pretty inconsequential as far as the main focus of LRG: what happens in North America will only be covered in a "broad sweep of history" format anyway.

The following text in white is full of spoilers. You have been warned.

The story of Accord Anderson is that he's the descendant of a rather odd ethnic mix of people who ended up in North America. They developed their own language which has no direct equivalent in OTL - a form of pidgin which evolved into a creole with some very odd features.

It started in *South Carolina, where the *English had started to set up rice plantations to export the crop back to the British Isles (and elsewhere in Europe). They used labour from a variety of sources: a few indentured whites (mostly Irish Gaelic-speakers), a large number of indentured labourers from Africa (a large group of speakers of various Mande languages from OTL Senegal and Sierra Leone, a smaller group of speakers of Gude from the OTL Nigeria-Cameroon border, and assorted others), and a few semi-enslaved Amerindians (mostly Creeks and Cherokee).

As in OTL, these labourers all in theory started out as indentured labour, but they were being gradually forced into slavery, or a close fascimile thereof (except kinda-sort for the non-Irish whites). Before the transition to slavery was complete, some of these labourers came into contact with a group of Plirites [1].

Because of their own beliefs, the Plirites strongly objected to turning indentured servants into slaves. They inspired a couple of groups of these labourers to run away from servitude and establish their own homelands, initially in the uplands of *South Carolina. These were an equivalent to some of the maroon communities which were formed in OTL in South America, the Caribbean, and a few parts of North America.

The runaways were more successful at establishing themselves as independent, permanent communities. There were a variety of reasons for this. In part, this was because the runaways had access to better crops which let them farm a decent amount of food. In part, it was also because the Amerindian population of the upcountry was much lower than it was in OTL. The effects of Aururian diseases on top of Eurasian diseases really devastated the Cherokees and other peoples of the uplands. Indeed, the arrival of the runaways itself brought more death, since there was a fresh Marnitja epidemic caused by a couple of asymptomatic carriers.

The demographic mix of these early runaway communities was quite complex. The largest group was escaped Africans, who were themselves mostly first-generation indentured labourers, came from various parts of Africa, and did not all speak related languages. (Mostly Mande languages and Gude, as previously mentioned). These African escapees had varying degrees of familiarity with English, but none were native English-speakers.

There were small numbers of whites amongst the runaways, too - mostly Irish who spoke a mixture of Gaelic and English. There were some of the Plirites themselves, who were also not native English-speakers. And there were a few Amerindians (mostly Cherokees) amongst the runaways. Some of those were part of the runaways, while others were refugees who had joined the runaway communities after their own peoples were devastated by the Marnitja epidemic and various Eurasian diseases (such as chickenpox). A disproportionate amount of these Cherokee refugees were women; the runaways themselves were majority male and were more inclined to accept women into their communities than men.

The language which developed amongst the runaways was a complex fusion of vocabulary and syntax from the disparate languages of the initial speakers. Those runaways had no single common language - a passing familiarity with English, in many cases, but also a reluctance to use that language because of its associations.

So what developed was a complex mixture, influenced by the original languages of the runaways. Two main groups of African languages: the Mande languages (which are mostly SOV), and Gude (VSO). Along with the language of the Plirites, which varies between VSO and SVO, English (SVO, mostly), Irish Gaelic (VSO), and Cherokee (often SVO, but rather flexible in its word order). The resulting creole has a distinctly mixed vocabulary, and a phonology influenced by that of each of its ancestral languages. Its syntax reflects a flexible word order: most commonly SOV, VSO or SVO (occasionally others such as OSV), but varying dependings on which words the speaker wishes to emphasise - generally the word spoken first is the one to be emphasised.

The runaway communities survived, and for a while were tolerated in the upcountry because they developed into the same niche which in OTL was filled by the Cherokee and other Amerindian peoples - supplying the deerskin trade and a few other commodities in exchange for European trade goods. They preserved their own language and religion (Plirism), though, and established a distinctive culture. In time, most of them had to leave the uplands... but that's another story.

[1] I'm not saying how Plirites ended up in North America, except that these people weren't in any way indentured.
 

Thande

Donor
Another thing I thought about is that the idea of the Nangu going out and expanding into global trade may at first glance look like an unjustified nativewank strategy, but then you remember that Australia - like Europe and unlike Asia - is a continent poor in many resources, so the impetus for trade once the Aururians have seen what the Europeans are trading in is much stronger than for the OTL Asian powers that were more technologically advanced but lacked that impetus, so sat there and got conquered and colonised.
 

The Sandman

Banned
The mention of rice in that spoiler made me think of another effect of Aururian contact with the outside world: rice becomes an incredibly high-status grain, mainly because of the sheer amount of water needed to cultivate it. Since even the wealthiest Aururians probably wouldn't be able to afford enough rice paddies to eat the grain regularly, though, it seems likely that it would be preserved in various ways instead. For example, as rice wine.

This in turn could have another odd butterfly, in that once the Dutch figure this out there's a good chance that they start buying sake in Japan to ship to Aururia, and possibly buying bulk rice as well for the same shipments.

And I wonder if somebody's going to try to bring chocolate to Aururia. They might not, given that I don't think anyone ever thought of selling chocolate in the Asian markets despite the much more limited range of European goods that those markets were interested in, but I assume it would do quite well if it gets there.
 
A response to Jared's spoilered section. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't highlight!

So, Accord is descended from something like the hillbillies turned up to 11 and fused with Aururian, African, and (Native) American cultures? I like it!
 
So, Accord is descended from something like the hillbillies turned up to 11 and fused with Aururian, African, and (Native) American cultures? I like it!



More like TTL's version of the Lumbee, or the Ramapough Mountain Indians. Although they seem far more numerically predominant, even more so than the Melungeon of OTL, which is the largest Appalachian group of somewhat questionable ethnic origin.
 
rice becomes an incredibly high-status grain, mainly because of the sheer amount of water needed to cultivate it. Since even the wealthiest Aururians probably wouldn't be able to afford enough rice paddies to eat the grain regularly, though, it seems likely that it would be preserved in various ways instead. For example, as rice wine.
It depends. Before this decade's drought, Australia produced large quantities of rice - crop of 1.64 million tons was harvested in 2001. Main producing state is NSW, which has ancient irrigation traditions in the LoRaG TL. OTOH, 2008 production was down to 19 000 tons, so while the wealthiest Aururians would be able to eat rice regularly, drought or not, middle class would be deprived of it, at least in dry years/decades, and lower classes would be even less able to taste that foreign grain. High-status product? Yes, but hardly incredibly high-status. It would be food of merchants and officers rather than food of emperors, I think.
 
Rice frankly makes a lot of sense for the Murray basin civs as they have a tradition of aquaculture and rice is one of the best calories-per-acre grains. So while I doubt it ever replaces Yams & Wattles it'll be a very good crop for feeding a lot of people on wet years. Assuming there's any cultural drive to do so. Maybe if the Dutch adventurists suceed you could see rice plantations.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Question about the sopilers for Jared

What do you see the people of , Accord looking like physically?
and have similar groups arisen else where in the Americas?
 
Another thing I thought about is that the idea of the Nangu going out and expanding into global trade may at first glance look like an unjustified nativewank strategy, but then you remember that Australia - like Europe and unlike Asia - is a continent poor in many resources, so the impetus for trade once the Aururians have seen what the Europeans are trading in is much stronger than for the OTL Asian powers that were more technologically advanced but lacked that impetus, so sat there and got conquered and colonised.

Yeah, the question of why Europe went trading and a-colonising around the world and the Asian powers didn't is a complex one, but I think that the relative lack of expensive resources in Europe had a lot to do with it. Asia just had the goods which everyone wanted, and which everyone was prepared to go out and collect. By and large, the Asian powers didn't have to go to the rest of the world, since the world would come to them for silk, spices, porcelain and whatnot.

Even going as far back as Roman times, that was the way things worked. If memory serves, China and India always had a net trade surplus with the rest of the world right down into the late nineteenth century. It took cotton textiles and opium to change the balance, if I remember right. So the drive wasn't really there to explore in the same way. Europe, on the other hand, knew there were valuable goods out there, and wanted to get to them. Hence, a-trading and a-colonising.

As far as the Nangu go, they have the same desire. They know there's a lot of expensive goods in the rest of the world, and they have a trading mentality which they developed after doing the same thing within Aururia - came from a poor island, and went trading for more. They've also inherited the Polynesian navigational knowledge and willingness to explore long distances, which helps, too.

Maybe they descend from Nangu traders.:)

'Tis certainly a possibility, but not the only one. Could be other Aururians, or non-Aururian converts to the Plirite faith. I'm neither confirming nor denying the identity of that group for a while.

The mention of rice in that spoiler made me think of another effect of Aururian contact with the outside world: rice becomes an incredibly high-status grain, mainly because of the sheer amount of water needed to cultivate it. Since even the wealthiest Aururians probably wouldn't be able to afford enough rice paddies to eat the grain regularly, though, it seems likely that it would be preserved in various ways instead. For example, as rice wine.

Rice might indeed be valuable as an import grain, depending on local tastes. Rice was a valuable cash crop for export to Europe in OTL (and ATL), and who knows, wealthy Aururians might decide the same thing, for either rice or rice wine.

I don't think that the Aururians will be growing much rice, for reasons I'll outline more fully below, but that won't stop them importing it if they value it highly enough.

This in turn could have another odd butterfly, in that once the Dutch figure this out there's a good chance that they start buying sake in Japan to ship to Aururia, and possibly buying bulk rice as well for the same shipments.

There might be a decent amount of money in this, particularly if Japan is in turn buying a lot of Aururian goods - kunduri and lemon myrtle, say. That would be like another leg of the intra-Asian trade network which the VOC took over so successfully in OTL.

And I wonder if somebody's going to try to bring chocolate to Aururia. They might not, given that I don't think anyone ever thought of selling chocolate in the Asian markets despite the much more limited range of European goods that those markets were interested in, but I assume it would do quite well if it gets there.

Chocolate needs to be chocolate plus sugar to do really well, as far as I can tell. Chocolate alone isn't all that big a hit - hardly unlikeable, but not as good as the combination. Europe was awash with sugar thanks to the Caribbean slave plantations, and so could use chocolate too.

I suspect there would have to be sugar available in Aururia for chocolate to take off; either imported from Asia, or grown in OTL Queensland, where it would grow rather well if labour can be obtained.

Those spoilers were very fascinating, I can't wait to here what happens in the rest of the Americas

'Twill be revealed, but probably not for a while. Too much else to describe in Aururia first.

A response to Jared's spoilered section. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't highlight!

So, Accord is descended from something like the hillbillies turned up to 11 and fused with Aururian, African, and (Native) American cultures? I like it!

Something like a fusion between hillbillies, Boers, maroons, militant evangelical pagans, and the last of the Mohicans.


More like TTL's version of the Lumbee, or the Ramapough Mountain Indians. Although they seem far more numerically predominant, even more so than the Melungeon of OTL, which is the largest Appalachian group of somewhat questionable ethnic origin.

I didn't know about the Lumbee, but Accord Anderson's people are an odd mix. They are basically maroons - which did happen in parts of OTL North America, especially Florida - but who are able to absorb the Amerindian population, rather than being absorbed into them. In OTL, a lot of white people joined the Amerindian peoples, one way or another, but with the worsened effects of diseases, it's more a case of the remaining Amerindians joining the maroons rather than the other way around.

It depends. Before this decade's drought, Australia produced large quantities of rice - crop of 1.64 million tons was harvested in 2001. Main producing state is NSW, which has ancient irrigation traditions in the LoRaG TL. OTOH, 2008 production was down to 19 000 tons, so while the wealthiest Aururians would be able to eat rice regularly, drought or not, middle class would be deprived of it, at least in dry years/decades, and lower classes would be even less able to taste that foreign grain. High-status product? Yes, but hardly incredibly high-status. It would be food of merchants and officers rather than food of emperors, I think.

I suspect that major rice-growing along the *Murray would not last longer than the first killing five-year drought. This is a result of the particular farming mindset in Aururia: having perennial crops and coping with an irregular drought cycle has taught the farmers to really think long-term. They won't grow much of crops which have such irregular yields. Especially since that same precious water can be used to support artificial wetlands which would produce even more valuable meat (fish and birds).

This doesn't stop Aururia importing rice, of course; that's entirely possible. I just don't think they'll be growing it much.

Rice frankly makes a lot of sense for the Murray basin civs as they have a tradition of aquaculture and rice is one of the best calories-per-acre grains. So while I doubt it ever replaces Yams & Wattles it'll be a very good crop for feeding a lot of people on wet years.

The "on wet years" here is the killer. A staple crop doesn't do much good if every drought produces a major famine. So I don't see it becoming a staple. A cash crop for the elite and merchants, perhaps, which would mean limited cultivation in some areas, but not something to act as a major staple for the people.

Assuming there's any cultural drive to do so. Maybe if the Dutch adventurists suceed you could see rice plantations.

Things may change if the Dutch or some other Europeans shake up the whole cultural landscape, of course. But the thing about pre-Houtmanian Aururian agriculture is that the limiting factor is yield per worker (and, to some degree, yield per unit of water), not yield per acre. They have a lot of land, but water and workers are more precious.

While rice is very high yield per acre, it's also very labour intensive, so putting all of their effort into growing that crop will mean that there won't be workers around to grow all of the other crops. So when the next drought hits, the other crops haven't been farmed, and the result will be famine.

Of course, if the Dutch are requiring rice plantations, they may not care about that...

What do you see the people of Accord looking like physically?


I can't say that exactly, since that would be telling about the physical appearance of the Plirites.

In general terms, though, a significant portion of their heritage is still sub-Saharan African. West African more particularly. However, this isn't quite as dominant as might be expected given their predominance among the original runaways (over 80% of whom were escaped Africans).

The reasons for this are several. In the original group of runaways, there were fewer women than men, even when Cherokee refugee women were included. So who got to have women (and hence descendants) was a matter of status. The Plirites were mostly of higher status, and so had more of the women, and more of the descendants. And, of course, a larger proportion of the women were Cherokee than anything else, which means that their heritage is also reflected in the descendant population.

Among the descendants, the ethnic heritage also has a bit of later admixture. A few later runaways are admitted to the peoples, and most of those runaways are of African descent. There is also trade contact, which leads to some children from liaisons, and a few of the traders settling permanently amongst the runaways - and the traders are pretty much all of white European descent. (Occasional Jews, too).

There's also a slight but cumulative trend of natural selection against pure African descent. This is because these West African populations have inherited sickle-cell anemia, which serves as a protection against malaria in West Africa or the *South Carolina lowlands, but which is a disadvantage in the upcountry where the runaways live - since it's too high for mosquitos and hence for malaria. So this leads to a slight selective advantage for runaways of mixed or non-African descent, too.

and have similar groups arisen else where in the Americas?

A few arise from time to time in some areas, but none of the ones in North America are anywhere near as successful as Accord Anderson's ancestors.

As for South America... I'll have to take the Fifth on that one.
 

tjvuse

Banned
I think this will eclipse what he did with Decades of Darkness.

I think this time line will eclipse Decades of Darkness to because their is less Russian wanking and so on in this time line so far (no offense ment) + i live in Australia as well.:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
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