Fatherland - vague areas

Hades · Jan 20, 2009

What happens to Mao in Robert Harris's Fatherland?

China is mentioned as being worse than Nazi Germany when Globocnik discusses Xavier's trip to Switzerland, but nothing else is mentioned thereafter.

So did mao lose? or is he unimportant?

I just had the feeling that Mao would start a three way cold war with the Nazis and the Americans striving for world Domination

What happened to Juan Peron?

FYI Peron was the Fascist dictator of Argentina

zoomar · Jan 20, 2009

I my be misremembering the Fatherland TL, but why wouldn't China have been conquered or dismembered by Japan? Are you sure the characters aren't referring to a Japanese dominated China?

One would presume Juan Peron would be doing just fine - perhaps a sort of Castro-like figure to the US.

Hades · Jan 20, 2009

well, in the novel, Japan is mentioned as having been defeated.

Zyzzyva · Jan 20, 2009

zoomar said:
I my be misremembering the Fatherland TL, but why wouldn't China have been conquered or dismembered by Japan? Are you sure the characters aren't referring to a Japanese dominated China?

One would presume Juan Peron would be doing just fine - perhaps a sort of Castro-like figure to the US.

No, Japan got utterly destroyed by the Americans - Harris, sensibly, doesn't go for the total Axis victory but has Japan lose (it gets nuked). Germany uses this as an opportunity to V3 New York, starting off the whole stalemate.

The Red · Jan 20, 2009

Can the Nazis actullay beat the remaining Soviet Union sans Nukes or is it just keeping it going to keep Germany in a perpetual state of conflict?References are made to both,I beleive the former as the Urals will be very easy to defend and Stalin will be getting massive American aid.

Zyzzyva · Jan 20, 2009

The Red said:
Can the Nazis actullay beat the remaining Soviet Union sans Nukes or is it just keeping it going to keep Germany in a perpetual state of conflict?References are made to both,I beleive the former as the Urals will be very easy to defend and Stalin will be getting massive American aid.

Exactly; there's this endless low-level guerilla war in the Urals.

Nae'Blis · Jan 20, 2009

Avalon1 said:
What happens to Mao in Robert Harris's Fatherland?

China is mentioned as being worse than Nazi Germany when Globocnik discusses Xavier's trip to Switzerland, but nothing else is mentioned thereafter.

So did mao lose? or is he unimportant?

I just had the feeling that Mao would start a three way cold war with the Nazis and the Americans striving for world Domination

What happened to Juan Peron?

FYI Peron was the Fascist dictator of Argentina

China is controlled by the Qing of course! It wouldn't be fun without the Qing. Or at least thats what the Hearts of Iron Fatherland mod has to say.

lothaw · Jan 20, 2009

I don't think China is mentioned all too much. I'd assume the KMT would've eventually won being Soviet Russia wasn't arount to assist Mao and the US was opening supporting them, not to mention it's in their sphere of influence now.

And I'd assume South America would've found itself with lots of facist regimes to try and appease Hitler.

Hades · Jan 21, 2009

Another thing that makes this as ASB as WorldWar - Germany's economy was geared for war. Why would it be faltering?

And why would Germany fall behind with the Von Braun Stations?

and would we have someone like Reagan in 68 as US president?

The Red · Jan 21, 2009

Avalon1 said:
Another thing that makes this as ASB as WorldWar - Germany's economy was geared for war. Why would it be faltering?

And why would Germany fall behind with the Von Braun Stations?

and would we have someone like Reagan in 68 as US president?

Civillan life has become very comfortable so not many Germans will be in factories, slaves are a lot less efficient.

The Von Braun station concept would actually be very dangerous to build as well as more complicated than the ISS without all the modern gizmos in it.

Joe Kennedy sr. is the President or is at least about to get elected.

Susano · Jan 21, 2009

Avalon1 said:
Another thing that makes this as ASB as WorldWar - Germany's economy was geared for war. Why would it be faltering?

Actually, IOTL, it wasnt as much as it could have been.

Of course, the parts of the Fatherland background I find dubious is the map where Germany has annexed Hungary and Romania. WTF?

Hades · Jan 21, 2009

So what happens after Fatherland?

1. WW3?

2. The collapse of Germany and the beginning of Pax Americana?

3. The rise of china?

Wendell · Jan 21, 2009

Susano said:
Actually, IOTL, it wasnt as much as it could have been.

Of course, the parts of the Fatherland background I find dubious is the map where Germany has annexed Hungary and Romania. WTF?

A good map of the Fatherland world would be useful.

General Zod · Jan 21, 2009

maverick said:
Germany's economy gets some boost thanks to trade with the USA, but the war in the Urals and other factors mean that Germany is on the long term going forwards to a civil war between SS and Wehrmatch, or soviet style collapse...

The latter outcome seems obvious, and purposefully hinted at by the author. The former is IMO almost ASB. Different branches of the ruling elite settle their differences in tense backroom deals or quick coups, not extended civil wars. The plausible thing that could come close is a Nazi Cultural Revolution.

Qazaq2007 · Jan 21, 2009

Susano said:
Actually, IOTL, it wasnt as much as it could have been.

Of course, the parts of the Fatherland background I find dubious is the map where Germany has annexed Hungary and Romania. WTF?

I actually have a copy of Fatherland w/ the map in it, and Hungary and Romania are not annexed into the Greater German Reich, but I am sure they are bound even tighter to Greater Germany, economically and politically than IOTL.

Susano · Jan 21, 2009

Qazaq2007 said:
I actually have a copy of Fatherland w/ the map in it, and Hungary and Romania are not annexed into the Greater German Reich, but I am sure they are bound even tighter to Greater Germany, economically and politically than IOTL.

So have I, and Romania and Hungary are part of the Greater German Empire in that map. Whats really weird is those allies are annexed, but subjugated Serbia isnt. As if teh mapmaker was too lazy and just wante dto give Germany a smooth southern border...

Pax Britannia · Jan 21, 2009

The map in my paperback copy of Fatherland is identical to the one on wikipedia.

Susano · Jan 21, 2009

maverick said:
So the German editions of Fatherland have worse maps that the original versions?

It appears so... the map of Germania-Berlin is the same, but the map of Europe different... vastly different style, Hungary and Romania annexed, the ultra-broad gauge railroad from Berlin to Ukraine is drawn in, the Reichs border is highlighted, a broad gray...Macedonia is Bulgarian (IIRC) Trondheim is marked as lleased to Germany for a naval base (worlds largest submarine base)...

Damnit, cant find that on the web, and cant find my edition for more details, either...

Wendell · Jan 21, 2009

I'd expect things to look a bit different.

Qazaq2007 · Jan 22, 2009

Susano said:
So have I, and Romania and Hungary are part of the Greater German Empire in that map. Whats really weird is those allies are annexed, but subjugated Serbia isnt. As if teh mapmaker was too lazy and just wante dto give Germany a smooth southern border...

Seems to me to be a case of laziness, after all the map, at least in my copy anyways, looks like it was slapped together in five minutes. In my copy of the book, the map in it shows Hungary and Romania outside the borders of Greater Germany, apparently you and I have different versions of the map, weird. I would like to see a scan of the map that is in your copy of the book just to see how different it is to mine.