Laurens lives

I have been playing with an idea for several months of a Laurens lives TL. This is something I just sort of vomited on to paper in the last few hours. I am hitting a wall with Laurens. While he is a great POD, he died young and therefore is quite the blank slate. I am having a hard time sources on the guy. Since this is my first TL I wrote it in a kind of Date and summary of events format. Let me know what you think so far, and any sources that can help me depict Laurens accurately would be helpful, I don't want to turn him into a Hamiltonian parrot:

Apr. 26th 1782- Col. John Laurens decides to skip visit to friends in the area and continue with Gen. Gist’s orders and moves into position with a howitzer and 50 Delaware Infantry. Laurens manages to turn Maj. Brereton’s advance and send the British back across the river and running towards Charleston.

Dec. 1782- The British garrison at Charlestown surrenders

Sept. 3rd 1783- Treaty of Paris signed all 10 articles remain the same.

1784- With War over John Laurens returns home to his plantation in South Carolina with Father, Henry. Both have served admirably during the recent war. Now they turn there focus to there farming and commercial pursuits. Both Laurens’ served, Henry as Minister to Netherlands and as President of the 2nd Continental Congress; John as a Lt. Colonel, aide-de-camp to Gen Washington and as a combat commander during the siege of Charleston in 1783. During the Confederation Laurens keeps up with his old friends from his days on Washington’s staff: the Marquis de Lafayette and Col. Hamilton. After the war Laurens’ wife Martha Manning leaves England with her daughter. There ship is lost at sea. Laurens never meets his daughter. Laurens doesn’t seem to be stifled by this and continues to call on wealthy women in Charleston. Laurens supports Hamilton’s efforts to increase the taxing power of the Confederate Govt.

1785- Laurens (John) continues writing letters to Hamilton, while his friendship with Lafayette cools, because of the Marquis’ unwillingness to stand up for America’s interests in France. The Colonel considered the friendship between the three unbreakable and is quite upset with the Marquis for not lobbying American interests at Versailles. Lafayette is of the mind that no matter how great their personal bond, politically it is suicide to advocate angering the British, France and her reluctant ally Spain are in no shape to fight a European War against England. Meanwhile, the Hamilton - Laurens relationship deepens, Hamilton chides Laurens for not visiting him and his wife Eliza more often. Their letters also discuss politics; both men are upset at the continuing ineptitude coming from the Continental Congress. In a letter between the two men, Hamilton states that, the Congress needs the power to tax and that there needs to be a new meeting of states to discuss Reform of the Articles.
 
Not quite sure who Laurens is or why we should care?

thanks for bringing that up. Laurens was a staff officer on Washington's staff during the ARW. He was good friends with Hamilton and the Marquis de Lafayette during the war. He died at the battle in the first entry. He is important because Laurens and Hamilton shared a fraternal bond. I was thinking a continued relationship might lead to moderating some of exigencies.
Thanks for the interest
 
just from reading over his wiki page he wanted to get Black regiments, have them fight and give them freedom...by having him survive, he could be influential in earlier abolition after the 18. or at the very lest do away with/change the 3/5ths compromise or changes after 1808.
 
I think the survival of John Laurens matters for the following reasons:
1. He was one of the first White Southern voices for Black emancipation based on military service. If he survives the ARW he could continue to be a voice of moderation as to racial matters. His bravery in the war and his close relationship with GW makes him an attracitve voice for such policies.
2. Like many veterans of the Continental Army he was a nationalist and might become a Federalist thus strengthening the Federalist Party in the South and preventing it from being dominated by the Essex Junto of New England High Federalists.
3. As a close friend of Hamilton he might have been able to moderate Hamilton's wilder ideas and writings, thus preserving Hamilton as a political force in the Federalist Party and the nation.
Since Laurens died at such a young age, it is really impossible to predict with any assurance what he would have become or accomplished. However, I do not believe that it is out of the range of possibility that the handsome and intelligent war hero from South Carolina could have become President in a different, more Federalist timeline.
Please proceed, Mr. Marty.

AH
 
Well, as evidenced by my earlier post, I know absolutely nothing about the guy. Thank you guys for the informative replies. This DOES look like it could be interesting alright.
 
This is a good start with a POD I've never seen on the boards before. While have some ideas as to where this might take the U.S. and thus the world, I'd like to see you continue the TL.

Benjamin
 
Since I have some interest, I am going to continue this. I am going to try to avoid a massive Ameri-wank, if I can; but the survival of a close SOUTHERN associate of Hamilton may make that impossible. I will be doing an update on Laurens personal life in the coming days so stay tuned.
 
Laurens Personal and Poltical life 1785

Local Politics 1785 [1]- While the Laurens-Hamilton relationship deepens. Laurens relationships in South Carolina continue to grow. John Laurens’ Father Henry retires, from their slave trade business, but continues to manage the family estate at Mepkin. While John Laurens personally despises slavery, he like many of his ilk are tied to it. A part of John Laurens hopes that Hamilton’s talk of a new convention will help him and the elites of South Carolina break from the institution before it dooms them all and his old dream of creating all black regiments as a way to win the freedom of blacks. At this point John Laurens effectively takes over for his father politically; his racial policies are a secret between all but him and his closest friends. He joins the State Assembly in 1786 and goes to the Annapolis Convention in 1786 (Author’s Note: the Annapolis convention will be covered later).

Personal Life 1785- While Laurens enjoys cavorting around Charleston with many young ladies (and the occasional slave girl), both Hamilton and his father Henry are getting after him to marry. After the death of Harriet Pinckney's first Husband Col. Daniel Huger during the war. In Dec. 1785, Laurens gets married in a private ceremony to Harriet Pinckney [2], a sister of Charles Pinckney, despite her age they have 5 children together, 3 sons: John Jr., Alexander, and George Washington; and 4 daughters: Mary, Eliza (died at age 2); John and Mary lived happily until Mary’s death in 1808 at the age of 60. This marriage ended much of the philandering that Laurens was or wasn’t involved in. Although it was rumored that he continued to carry on with slave women while at the family plantation, Mepkin; which was inherited by his brother Henry Jr., upon there father’s death in 1792.



[1] I will be doing a couple of updates with these personal or political or business headings. I think it will make it easier to read and digest. It is worth noting that most of the events of the United States are continuing as planned. There is a Land Ordinance of 1785 and will be a Northwest Ordinance of 1787, although slightly modified. Just assume business as usual unless otherwise noted.

[FONT=&quot][2] Thanks to mbanghar for finding a real Pinckney sister. The ties of Marriage may not be enough to hold Charles to Federalism but sometimes things change.


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Laurens was considered Presidental material before his death in fact even Hamilton was considered Presidental material but his more radical views took over after Laurens died. I find it funny how each served as a check and balance upon each other. Hamilton coninvced Laurens to keep his more radical views under check just as Laurens did for Hamilton.

Also just imagine a Laurens Presidency where Hamilton was Sec. of State :p
 
Personal Life 1785- While Laurens enjoys cavorting around Charleston with many young ladies (and the occasional slave girl), both Hamilton and his father Henry are getting after him to marry. In Dec. 1785, Laurens gets married in a private ceremony to Mary Pinckney [2], a sister of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, they have 7 children together, 3 sons: John Jr., Alexander, and George Washington; and 4 daughters: Mary, Eliza (died at age 2) Charlotte, and Rachel; John and Mary lived happily until Mary’s death in 1808. This marriage ended much of the philandering that Laurens was or wasn’t involved in. Although it was rumored that he continued to carry on with slave women while at the family plantation, Mepkin; which was inherited by his brother Henry Jr., upon there father’s death in 1792.


[FONT=&quot][2] fictional character, I have no idea if Pinckney had a sister, he did marry John’s sister Mary at around the same time. I am assuming since everyone had a huge family and everyone had a sister named Mary she is a real person. If anyone finds out the name of a real sister I will change it. I really want Laurens to be related to the Pinckney’s without messing with the family’s of other Federalists (Pierce Butler, also married to a Pinckney sister; Charles Pinckney also a member). [/FONT]

Small point of clarification you have the wrong Charles Pickney marrying Mary Laurens. His cousin, Charles Pickney, married Mary Laurens. Charles Cotesworth Pickney married Sarah Middleton who died at age 27 and then Mary Stead.

To answer your question Charles Cotesworth Pickney had a sister named Harriet, but she was married in 1767 to Colonel Daniel Huger Horry. Also she was born in 1748 which would have made her 37 at the time of marriage.

Charles Pickney unforunately for your purposes I cannot seem to find any siblings for him. Though the story will be quite interesting since in OTL, Pickney starts off as a Federalist, but moves to Jefferson's Party in the middle 1790s. Could be real interesting story with Laurens surviving.
 
[FONT=&quot]Business 1785- John Laurens now the manager of the Laurens family holdings, John along with his brother Henry Jr. control much of the slave trade in and out of Charleston. They run one of the biggest slave trading firms, in the South. Laurens through his close relationship with Hamilton begins a series of letters exploring financial means of ending slavery in the South. As their correspondence grows, they concoct a vague plan that is running roughly analogous to Hamilton’s famous assumption scheme. Whereby, the total value of slaves is decided and is rolled into the confederation debt and the money is returned to the slave owners in the form of land grants to the new territories added by the Treaty of Paris. Currently this scheme is only in their two minds but it will be sure to cause an uproar in the coming years.

let me know what you think of this. updates will be slower now as this is all I have had planned so far.
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[FONT=&quot]Business 1785- John Laurens now the manager of the Laurens family holdings, John along with his brother Henry Jr. control much of the slave trade in and out of Charleston. They run one of the biggest slave trading firms, in the South. Laurens through his close relationship with Hamilton begins a series of letters exploring financial means of ending slavery in the South. As their correspondence grows, they concoct a vague plan that is running roughly analogous to Hamilton’s famous assumption scheme. Whereby, the total value of slaves is decided and is rolled into the confederation debt and the money is returned to the slave owners in the form of land grants to the new territories added by the Treaty of Paris. Currently this scheme is only in their two minds but it will be sure to cause an uproar in the coming years.

let me know what you think of this. updates will be slower now as this is all I have had planned so far.
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:confused:Slaves were EXPENSIVE. I've seen (reproductions) of adds for slaves at up to (or over?) $1000. That may be the cream of the young male breeder/farmhand stock, but that is a LOT of money in those days.

Whereas land is cheap. Heck, people were squatting and getting away with it. So, suppose some guy has 100 slaves. He tells the government that he has 200, and they're all prime. So the government awards him ?? hundred square miles of new territory. What good does it do him? He certainly can't work it without slaves. He can sell some of it, but a bunch will likely have squatters on it, and a bunch will be claimed by the local natives (mind, those two bunches overlap).

And if he is expected to develop the lands at all (roads, stores, churches, whatever), where would he get the capital, as planters tended to live in heavy debt to keep their lifestyle up.

Oh, and this means the federal government would receive NO income from land sales (which, at times, was significant).

It seems like a clever idea in theory that isn't likely to work out well, IMO.
 
:confused:Slaves were EXPENSIVE. I've seen (reproductions) of adds for slaves at up to (or over?) $1000. That may be the cream of the young male breeder/farmhand stock, but that is a LOT of money in those days.

Whereas land is cheap. Heck, people were squatting and getting away with it. So, suppose some guy has 100 slaves. He tells the government that he has 200, and they're all prime. So the government awards him ?? hundred square miles of new territory. What good does it do him? He certainly can't work it without slaves. He can sell some of it, but a bunch will likely have squatters on it, and a bunch will be claimed by the local natives (mind, those two bunches overlap).

And if he is expected to develop the lands at all (roads, stores, churches, whatever), where would he get the capital, as planters tended to live in heavy debt to keep their lifestyle up.

Oh, and this means the federal government would receive NO income from land sales (which, at times, was significant).

It seems like a clever idea in theory that isn't likely to work out well, IMO.

Couple of things:

1. The skepticism is well deserved. ITTL it is only in theory and is still being sketched on paper by our POV characters.

2. Hamilton wants to fold it into the the vague assumption scheme he is cooking up. If we remember our Early Am. Hist. the scheme basically worked like this. Hamilton assumes the state debts from the ARW and the speculators by the debt as certificates securitizing debt for the first time. Hamilton will argue to Laurens that instead of Land they use securities and the govt. agrees to compensate the slaveholders in either/or/combination of Land and Securities. As a result the Govt. now owns the slaves. Therefore the gov. does what it wants with the slaves. Edit: Possibly developing the land for there former masters? Essentially working it off.
Edit: One more thing to consider slaveholders loved there land. They just loved the idea of saying I own a shit ton of land to each other. We have to men who are accutely aware of slavery and what is and two mean who desperately want to end it. Dathi, there will be inspectors involved in any sort of scheme to buy back slaves.

3. Manumission will be gradual. I would think that Laurens would want to use them (slaves) for military service (this was a pet idea from the revolution), I think Hamilton would want to use them for Edit: for internal improvements. As I said earlier basically developing there old masters' land for them. I think any cash poor slaveholder would see the advantages of having free labor develop there land and then them reaping the rewards of those developments. Its sort of a combination of speed, crack cocaine, the old CCC and the WPA (CCC)

4. Who says it works the way they want it to? EDIT: The mainpoint of the update was to show what the men were think in 1785 not what becomes policy in 4 years.

5. They both consider this a starting point. They are by no means done with the slavery issue.

Thanks Dathi for comments. Anyone else?

Edit: I think I will publish the letters they send back and forth to each other as part of my next update.
 
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Mr. Marty,

As Laurens and Hamilton develop their ideas about compensated manumission, I think they should, and probably will, considered the following issues:
1. Any program should start small and prove it can work before being expanded.
2. The program should include an element of education; teaching the freedman a trade so they can support themselves.
3. As Hamilton will probably understand, combining compensated manumission with assumption of state debts is probably too big a package for the South to swallow. As happended in OTL, first get assumption of state debts by trading off assumption for a Southern capital city. Then, after the assumption of state debts and the securitization of the debt is shown to work (although die hards like Jefferson and Madison will never understand or accept the concept of securitization and trading) propose a starter program of manumission using tradeable governmental securities as the compensation. Debt service on the securities could be tied to land sales and tariff revenues. Perhaps some enlightened Northern Republicans such as Gallatin will support the concept because of their anti slavery beliefs.
4. The important thing is to get a national program of manumission started so that the gradual abolition of slavery starts to become a natural concept in the South as well as the North.
5. Get GW on board. His prestige behind the project is essential. Although GW might be sympathetic to the general concept, he shied away from concrete steps until he was near death so this may take a great deal of work by Laurens, Hamilton and probably LaFayette If GW can be convinced, have the ceremonial first manumission and first delivery of "manumission bonds" take place at Mt. Vernon.

AH
 
um...maybe having a couple of regiments of freedmen helping out in the war of 1812 analog would help, helping to defend Washington or at the Battle of Baltimore or something along those lines. Showing that these men will indeed fight for and help defend their new country. If it's a major battle where they help turn the tide or slow down Whomever they'll get more requisition.

also if you have them appeal to the small farmers who have a bigger vote than the rich big plantations they can help drive manuism, especially if it involves moving freed blacks west and north, Maybe into Indiana/Illinois area
 
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