AH Challenge- Desolate Nations

Create nations out of any of these icy, underpopulated or unstrategic regions:

Greenland
Prince Edward Island
Newfoundland
Tierra Del Fuego
Antarctica
Alaska
Siberia
 
How do Alaska and Prince Edward Island fit onto this list? They are neither icy, underpopulated or unstrategic. Well, more the latter than the former really. I mean, PEI is not icy, nor underpopulated (in regards to what? New York City?) or unstrategic (it commands the approaches to the St. Lawrence).
 
Greenland once upon a time had a better climate, but the Medieval Climate Optimum (or whatever it was called) ended. The Viking colonists in Greenland died or merged with the Inuit.

POD: Have the Climatic Optimum never end.

Greenland could be a Scandinavian state.
 
David S Poepoe said:
How do Alaska and Prince Edward Island fit onto this list? They are neither icy, underpopulated or unstrategic. Well, more the latter than the former really. I mean, PEI is not icy, nor underpopulated (in regards to what? New York City?) or unstrategic (it commands the approaches to the St. Lawrence).

Hm, I thought you would criticize Newfoundland being on the list first.

I was thinking about more on general terms of proximity to the North Pole and unlikeliness of becoming a nation when I put Alaska down. In the game X-Com Alaska became its own nation in 2050. I put PEI down because somehow it became a country in the Tripartite Alliance TL.

What about Nunavut?
 
Yeah, I'd say Antarctica is the real choice out of the group as it's an island continent with much resources. OK, it's pretty cold down there, but if people can survive in such cold climates elsewhere in the world, then I can't see why they can't in Antartica.

Having said that, Antartica's overall population wouldn't be overly high, but it's coming to nationhood could parallel Australia's history to a certain degree. That is: it's population starts off very small as a penal colony somewhere around the 1850s &, as various resources are discovered, from herding/hunting whales to various mineral discoveries, parts of the continent is annexed, possibly entirely by Britian, but maybe by a few other European countries. Needless to say, the great majority of settlements etc are all along the coastline, whilst the interior is never taken, although a number of research stations, akin to the OTL, are scattered around the interior.

Whether Antartica ever gains independence is another matter, but it probably would sometime in the latter 20th century. It may, though, not become one country, but several depending upon how many colonial powers were involved in the setting up the various colonies.
 
I think in that scenario a divided Antarctica is probably the most likely situation. Perhaps a British portion, a French portion, maybe a Spanish or Portugeuse? Maybe even the USA could set up a penal colony there, but seeing as they aren't a big colonial power that might not be plausible.
 

Grey Wolf

Donor
Matt Quinn said:
Greenland once upon a time had a better climate, but the Medieval Climate Optimum (or whatever it was called) ended. The Viking colonists in Greenland died or merged with the Inuit.

POD: Have the Climatic Optimum never end.

Greenland could be a Scandinavian state.

Ah, I guess it makes calling it GREENland rather more explicable

Grey Wolf
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
Actually, I heard it was because Eric the Red was a good Real Estate Salesman. Greenland still had its icecap.

Siberia is becoming a very populated, strategic and wealthy area in OTL. Remember Boris Godunov's quote. "I bring you acres of timber, mountains of furs and rivers of gold, the bad news is, its in Siberia."

Antarctica the most likely choice?? Antarctica makes Siberia look like Miami. There is only one animal that lives entirely on the Antarctic continent, a type of wingless fly found in the scoured valleys. Resources aren't much use when they're under a kilometer of ice. You couldn't and can't have a colony where you must ship them ALL of their food as well as every other supply they need.
Additionally, Antarctica is probably the most environmentally sensitive place on Earth. In addition to having their food flown in the scientists living there have their wastes flown out, even that small amount could do horrendous damage.
 
NapoleonXIV said:
Antarctica the most likely choice?? Antarctica makes Siberia look like Miami.


Who ever said living in Antartica was going to be a picnic? Likewise, I'd say, living in northern Siberia or northern Alaska/Canada isn't either. But if humans can manage to live in these locations & survive there's absolutely no reason why they can't at the other end of the world. So why can't they? What, living up north is fine, but here down south is bad or something? :p


NapoleonXIV said:
There is only one animal that lives entirely on the Antarctic continent, a type of wingless fly found in the scoured valleys.


There are also seals, whales, dolphins other than the penguins & goodness know how many different species of fish down there. So there's plenty of good tucker to feed upon. And this is besides the fact that whalers, during the entire 19th century, would go down to Antartica on a regular basis from bases in Australia, South Africa & South America.


NapoleonXIV said:
Resources aren't much use when they're under a kilometer of ice.


I'm only talking about the coastal areas, not at the south pole itself. Besides, once it gets out in the 1850s that there's gold down in a place free of any government, you'll get thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people heading for the place regardless if it's a desert or it's a freezer. Greed is good! lol :rolleyes:


NapoleonXIV said:
You couldn't and can't have a colony where you must ship them ALL of their food as well as every other supply they need.
Additionally, Antarctica is probably the most environmentally sensitive place on Earth. In addition to having their food flown in the scientists living there have their wastes flown out, even that small amount could do horrendous damage.


Actually much of this is late 20th century environmentalism (not that I disagree with it BTW). But we're talking 1850's onwards here not 2004! No one will care less, sadly, what impact they have on the environment down there. Mind you, Antartica isn't the only environment that's sensitive. I think you'll find they all are! Australia is a perfect example where the importation of animals such as the fox, rabbit & cat has caused horrendous damage. But 200 years ago no one cared. Likewise the Cane Toad has caused great damage & the introduction of that creature was less than 100 years ago. Still no one cared. :(

Now, considering we're talking the 1850s, no one will care what damage is done so long as progress is made. And that is measured in how many settlements are established, how many whalers are catching whales, how many mines are in operation, how many factories are producing products, & how fast the various products from Antartica can reach the markets in Europe & America. That'll be what matters to any long term Antartica colony(s). Thus the environment will change as a result. Alas no one will say anything, until the 1950s, by which time it's far too late to reverse the human impact. Besides, in the OTL, Antartica has survived numerous oil spills, tons of human garbage, not to mention contamination from an American nuclear power station, over a period of a century. And it's only been in the last decade or two that the concerns & measures, which you speak about, have been taken seriously.
 
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'yknow on the Mosaic Earth thread there was actually a nation in which was dwelled by descendents by whalers. I could post it here if anyone wants.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
I still think you're underestimating Antarctica just a little. Almost constant winds along the shorelines (called the Catabatic (sp?) I think) regularly approach 200mph in gusts. Breezy days like that have been sufficient to keep Patagonia unpopulated up until now.

Speaking of which, why is everyone ignoring Tierra de Fuego? There was actually a city (Punta Arenas) there in the 19thc (still is). A gold rush there is credible.
 
If we could get Vinland set up as a successful colony, perhaps the early settlers would have stopped over more often in Greenland, giving it a greater strategic importance.
 
Having the climate remain warm would be good for any of these.
Also have better technology so the cold places can be colonized 'space style'
 

Redbeard

Banned
Greenland already is a nation (mixed Inuit/Danish) with 50.000 citizens, extensive home rule inside the Danish Kingdom - and massive subsidies from Copenhagen. A full independence is regulary discussed and could probably gain broad support in mainland Denmark (not having to send 300 mill $ each year), but would only gain support from the more romantic Greenlanders.

A PoD could be the Danish Government acting like the Czechs when they "excluded" Slovakia.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
NapoleonXIV said:
I still think you're underestimating Antarctica just a little. Almost constant winds along the shorelines (called the Catabatic (sp?) I think) regularly approach 200mph in gusts. Breezy days like that have been sufficient to keep Patagonia unpopulated up until now.


Oh sure there'll be places down there which couldn't be settled. I don't doubt that. In fact, considering the size of Antartica & the limited area I'm suggesting for settlement, I'm only advocating about 5-10% of the place being taken. The rest remains untouched. But if I take your argument completely into account, well Australia shouldn't have been settled as the great bulk of my country is far too hostile for human habitation. That hasn't, however, allowed humans to settle in habitable regions & thus we currently number 20 million. Now I'm not suggesting 20 million people living in Antartica, but 3-4 million could be down there in this AH by the year 2000.
 
G.Bone said:
'yknow on the Mosaic Earth thread there was actually a nation in which was dwelled by descendents by whalers. I could post it here if anyone wants.


I've never heard of this Mosaic Earth, & I'm sure many others haven't either, so by all means post it here. :cool:
 

Straha

Banned
DMA said:
I've never heard of this Mosaic Earth, & I'm sure many others haven't either, so by all means post it here. :cool:
excuse me!? :eek: Mosaic earth was like a 20 page thread on the old forum!
 
Straha said:
excuse me!? :eek: Mosaic earth was like a 20 page thread on the old forum!

Well I wasn't here back then, & like all the newer members, obviously we're not aware of such a thread. Furthermore, no one mentioned that it was on the old forum until now. Needless to say, I'll now have a long read...
 

Straha

Banned
DMA said:
Well I wasn't here back then, & like all the newer members, obviously we're not aware of such a thread. Furthermore, no one mentioned that it was on the old forum until now. Needless to say, I'll now have a long read...
it was a thread on the ASB boards which got so big it became 2 threads. The premise was that Britain from OTL as placed in a world where nations from various ATLs ended up there. Thats the gist of the proposal it went into a storyline with lizardmen invading antarctica...
 
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